2011 Organizational Rankings: #1 – New York
The big dog of big dogs, the Yankees continue to show what an organization can do with access to massive amounts of cash and the understanding of how to use it. They’re not perfect, but they’re still the gold standard for clubs in Major League Baseball. The Yankee brand has never been stronger.
Present Talent: 94.00 (1st)
Future Talent: 90.00 (t-3rd)
Financial Resources: 93.18 (1st)
Baseball Operations: 87.00 (3rd)
Overall Rating: 91.40 (1st)
Let’s start with the surprising part of these rankings – the FanGraphs staff overwhelming gave the Yankees the best score for present talent, which I was pretty stunned by. The general consensus seems to be that the Red Sox are the best team in baseball right now, and it’s a sentiment that I happen agree with, but the Yankees won out easily among FanGraphs writers. Our guys are clearly not too concerned with the back of the rotation and don’t expect the older players to really show their age. Either that, or the Steinbrenners just bought their votes, which we can’t discount as a real possibility.
Regardless of whether you think they’re currently the best team in baseball or not, it’s tough to argue that they aren’t in the mix, at least. Even given some questions on the current roster, there’s also an overwhelming amount of talent at the positions that are set, and then there’s the inevitable reality that the Yankees will likely pursue premium players to fill any holes that arise in season. With the deepest of pockets, the Yankees can flex their financial muscle like no other franchise. Last year, they were able to essentially just buy Kerry Wood and Lance Berkman in July, as their ability to take on salary allowed them to upgrade the roster without surrendering real talent in return. If the back of the rotation does develop into a problem, you can bet that the Yankees will employ a similar strategy, and they’ll be able to target players that are out of budget range for most other organizations.
However, unlike in the 1980s and 1990s, the Yankees are no longer a retirement home for the overpaid superstar in decline. Sure, they still have some contracts on the books that are well above the market rate, but while Alex Rodriguez is overpaid, he’s also still quite productive. Brian Cashman has helped create a baseball operations staff that has learned how to say no, walking away from popular players such as Johnny Damon and Hideki Matsui, while also setting price limits for coveted free agents like Cliff Lee. They no longer just throw as much money as it takes to get whoever the public demands. They have a plan, and they stick to it, decreasing their likelihood of ending up with a roster of guys living off their reputation.
It’s a tough combination to beat, honestly. A well run baseball operations staff backed by revenue streams larger than several other organizations put together, in the largest market in the country, with a brand that is synonymous with baseball itself – the Yankees aren’t going anywhere any time soon. Every other team in baseball is still trying to catch the Yankees, and it looks like it will be that way for quite some time.
They set a price limit on Cliff Lee? That’s why Cliff Lee isn’t a Yankee? Pssssttttt……
He did get more from the Phillies than the Yankees were offering. You don’t think he’d be in the Bronx if they went 6/150M? Of course that would have meant giving Sabathia even more this off-season. Add-in Burnett and that’s almost 70 million on three pitchers through 2013 at least.
The Yankees have a budget.
yep..the media seems to disregard the fact that Lee is getting 3-4 million more per year than what he would have gotten with the yankees..
More per year over less years != more money
the Yankees don’t have a budget
Tom B
He took a 5/$120m contract (with a $15mil club option to make it 6/$135m) instead of the Yankees reported offer of 6/$132m. For argument’s sake and to make your side seem better, let’s call it even in terms of cost of place to live (higher NY tax rates and cost of living).
He gave up the guarantee of a 6th year from the Yankees for the Phillies team option, so its a slight loss of security there, but he “gambled” with only the last $12m of the deal. The 6th year option can be reached just by pitching 200 innings in 2015, but even if it doesn’t the Phillies are likely as of right now to exercise that option given salary inflation.
“But if the Phillies don’t exercise it and he doesn’t pitch 200 innings, he won’t get paid” — See: Harden, Rich. Sheets, Ben. Guys that are aces get paid money even if they are hurt, as they don’t grow on trees.
That was brief.
Is their really more to say…
They have more money than anyone else.
They have figured out how to use that money well (such as signing multiple Type A free agents in a single season to mitigate the loss of draft picks).
They use the money to sign players to above slot deals and use the international market well.
Their current team is one of the best in baseball.
People write many blogs about the Yankees. The sox got a large write up.
That’s funny, because in the Red Sox comments, people are complaining about its brevity as well.
Not its brevity.
I hate the Yankees. Did that factor into your consideration?
Hate and love aren’t that far apart. It’s the same intensity of emotion.
One of the best comments I’ve seen in a long, long time.
I’m surprised by the present talent ranking, but when we consider that Granderson will be hitting 8th for this team and the 9th hitter has a ready replacement in a top 5 prospect talent, it’s hard not to see. They’re that good.
The rotation is worrisome, but it would crazy to consider that if they were a bit less conservative and put Joba or Banuelos into the rotation, they could be really quite good with lots of upside.
After that, it’s nitpicking Jeter’s age and defense even as that’s the biggest hole going forward. They’re already moved to end the relationship with Posada while best taking advantage of his remaining skills.
Average age of regulars (starting 9 + 4 starters + relief ace):
28
31
28
37
35
27
30
30
39
30
34
25
24
41
Avg: 31.4
While they have retooled at several positions, they are still in the age danger zone at several key spots-Posada and Fruitbat can’t keep going on like this forever, and Jeter and ARod are clearly past their peaks. Sox ages:
26
29
27
32
27/35
29
27
35
35
27
26
32
31
30
Avg (w/ Lowrie at SS): 29.5
And the 3 oldest guys will be off the books next year, with 2 youngsters ready to replace 2 of them. Several people are in or are about to hit their prime years, while only Cano and Gardner (Hughes maybe) will for the Yanks. 2 years is huge, frankly.
You overlooked the fact that the Yankees have a farm system also.
And by all accounts, it’s much better than Boston’s.
Fool is the most apropos part of that handle.
Well the Yankees have 2 rotation spots and a starting/backup catcher/dh spot that will open up to start next season. The Yankees have the young talent to fill in those voids as well. As of right now the Yankees are better prepared to fill in roster spots with young talent than the Sox are.
If their farm is “much better”, then how come Boston could get Gonzalez for 3 of their prospects when apparently nobody else could come up with a similar package (i.e. those 3 players still count when determining farm system quality)?
I don’t deny that the Yankees do have some talent they can plug in and fill upcoming holes-the issue is that in 2 years they’ll have many more holes to fill. Who is Jeter’s heir apparent? A-Rod’s? Rivera’s? [Don't say Joba please] And for those who think 2 years difference in average age is worthy of nothing more than a snide comment about my handle, feel free to continue living in your state of denial.
“how come Boston could get Gonzalez for 3 of their prospects when apparently nobody else could come up with a similar package ”
Because gonzalez wants a Tex like contract as well..and the only few teams that can afford are the yankees, Sox and phillies…The yankees have Tex and the Philies have Howard…why would they trade for him? The only reasonable Team that would give gonzalez the contract and has the farm are the sox…but that doesn’t mean no one else had the farm to get Gonzalez.
The Yankees’ farm system isn’t “much better” than Bostons, even after the trade for Gonzalez. It is marginally better.
“If their farm is “much better”, then how come Boston could get Gonzalez for 3 of their prospects when apparently nobody else could come up with a similar package (i.e. those 3 players still count when determining farm system quality)?”
Ummm no. Those 3 players don’t count. They’re on the Padres now.
If you leave Mo out of the equation, NY’s average drops down to 30.6. Sure, having a 41yo closer inflates your roster’s age, but I doubt there are many teams that would make that sacrifice to have Mo around. The guy does have the best ERA+ in history, after all.
I’ve gone though this a couple of times, but according to Marcel, Zips, etc, the Red Sox will out hit the Yankees at pretty much every position but CF. They’ll outhit the yankees drastically at 3B, LF, and possibly SS.
They will also, according to UZR, play better defense.
Ranking the Yankees #1 as present talent is patently absurd.
Boston wins out at 2B?
Maybe you should check your math… lol
this is not a ridiculous statement. at 2b, assuming full health, i’d call it a oush. Pedroia loses out on power but a slight edge on avg/obp. 1b also seems like a push. I also would give the Yankees a slight edge at RF, as I’d assume Drew injuries and Kalish still being a 22 yo, and less of an edge in CF (if healthy and productive, I’m not sure I’d prefer Granderson over Ellsbury, although they have different productive characteristics, obviously).
the basic point, that the Sox on offense have clear advantages at multiple positions whereas the yankees don’t as much. and that the sox are much much better defensively. add to that the fact that the yankees have some real potential pitching issues (their rotation backup end is very iffy, and the bullpen is of course shaky), and i just don’t see how you can say the yanks are better at present than the sox. in fact, it seems pretty damned stupid.
@minja
The back end of the Yankees rotation is iffy, but the Sox’s rotation is a collection of big names with big $$ but without big performance.
And really offense having clear advantages at multiple positions? Where?
C – The sox probably have the worst catchers in the AL
1B – Tex vs Agonz is a push
2B – Cano is favored, and unless you expect Pedroia to hit like .330 he won’t have an advantage in avg
SS – Jeter is better than Scutaro and Jed Mr. Glass Lowrie
3B – Youk is favored but with a healthy ARod it may not be by much
RF – I’d take Swish over Drew at their respective points in their careers
CF – Granderson is better than Ellsbury
LF – Crawford is better
DH – Ortiz is probably better, except when a lefty is on the mound.
So if by multiple positions, you mean 2
Cano and Pedroia are not a push. Cano is a noticably better hitter. Fenway disguises this but take away the extra cheap doubles he gets and Pedroia hits the same in Fenway as he does on the road, (108 OPS points higher at home while Cano is actually a bit better on the road). Career Pedroia OPS’s .774 on the road, Cano checks in at .843.
Pedroia is a slightly better than average bat at 2b and a great fielder. Cano is a way above average bat at 2B and a very good fielder.
Advantage Yankees
There are two teams in New York… title needs amendment.
There is a second NY team?
Myth.
the knicks
http://metsmerizedonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/tumblr_lhk1g4rZ791qcd61wo1_500.jpg
The Knicks were a team before Melo showed up…. Nice move Isiah…
About time the New York Liberty gets some recognition.
No silly, there are 3, but why would we count the Staten Island Yankees and the Brooklyn Cyclones??
I think I like Cameron’s more passive aggressive form of hate better than Klassens blatant display.
Hate the team? Do the shortest possible writeup you can get away with :D
see i don’t like that. i would rather a deep discussion about the team, ending with “but I hope they end up being not as good as I have shown them to be.” rather than just saying “they’re good and rich.” you know? basically, i prefer klaassen’s style with the red sox writeup.
I was hoping #1 would be ‘Mystery Team’.
Mystery Team always has an active offseason, but the big name players always seem to slip through their fingers.
But they DO seem to have ample financial resources.
Seriously, after the really detailed reports on all the other teams, this is really disappointing. It’s like 3.5 paragraphs long. What the hell?
A hot, rich chick doesn’t need the compliments. Her beauty speaks for itself. ;)
touché
Agreed. First paragraph was enough.
Well, if she’s a Yankees fan, I’d prefer she not speak at all. ;)
I don’t understand how Toronto, who was ahead of NY in the prospect rankings ended up with an 85 while NY got a 90.
Probably because New York has a way more impressive prospect group than Toronto. I understand your point, but no way should TOs system rate better than NYs…
Lolwut? Everyone ranks Toronto’s system well ahead of New York’s. The future talent rankings make zero sense, putting New York ahead of Atlanta and Toronto is ludicrous.
When the writers don’t believe in the present talent rankings that have been created by the writers, something is wrong.
When the Yankees edge over the Red Sox is twice as great in present talent than in financial resources, something is wrong.
The result, on an overall ranking level, ends up correct, but it gets there via very strange inputs.
Not necessarily. I mean, these are ordinal rankings basically. Even if the Yankees had a million times more financial resources, they’re only going to be one place above the Red Sox.
I’m meh about the present/future rankings. They’re all in the same echelon, I can see pros and cons.
The rankings are based on non-ordinal valuations, which are what I am comparing.
The ordinal ranking on the financial resources is accurate. It is the point difference, which is relatively small between the Sox and the Yankees, that seems badly off.
I was hoping the Yankees write-up would be: “Pass.”
Hilarious.
Hopefully everyone gets your reference.
so basically you had nothing to say besides that you don’t agree with the rating and they are rich. very insightful. no analysis of where the team is going, how players are progressing/aging (besides saying rodriguez is productive and overpaid), not even about how likely they are going forward to compete with the juggernaut red sox, up and coming blue jays, thrifty rays and the new faces on the orioles? matt klaassen is a jays fan, openly stated that he hated the sox and their fan base in his article, and he still wrote a much more in depth and analytical article about the red sox. i am normally a huge dave cameron fan, but this felt a little rushed, to be honest. i know most of the information one might expect to see would be in the team preview and top 10 prospects pages, but i kind of expected this to be a culmination of those articles. maybe it’s just me that’s expecting this series to be more than it is meant to be. must say, though, still a dave cameron fan!
http://www.ussmariner.com/
He was telling true Mariner fans about his support of Luis Rodriguez. This Luis Rodriguez http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2364&position=2B/3B/SS.
It was a full day for Cammy yesterday.
Luh you, Dave. Go Ms!
I really don’t understand how they are number one in talent. If you take both the Red Sox and the Philies, I feel like offensively the three teams are almost even, the red sox might have a slight advantage in the outfield. None of the teams have an elite shortstop,, but pitching is where there is a huge difference. Even with Lackey and Beckett having down years last year, they are still better than Colon and Nova. An I don’t even have to mention why Philly’s Pitching is better.
I would give the Yankees third on current talent, not first.
Phillies offense close to Yankees and Red Sox????? Are you out of your mind? They have like 2 good hitters.
The Phillies barely even have an average offense with Utley hurting.
Their starting pitching is great, but the O is not in the same league as NYY and BOS.
The Phillies Lineup isn’t even close to the yankees/redsox. The yankees/redsox lineups are insane.
Beware people who say “I feel like” instead of “I think”.
I feel like I could play center field for the Yankees.
The AL East is going to be a bloodbath this year. The Phillies are like a cool cousin who try but….just aren’t cool enough.
Yankee Stadium is half empty on opening day.
it’s a sellout, though, 48 thousand. a lot of people either didn’t go or staying inside the concourse because it was raining.
It’s raining, they are standing behind the seats genius.
Thanks for running this series Fangraphs! I hope you have learned from some of the methodology mistakes (more samples in some ranking categories) readers have pointed out and make this even better next year.
vr, Xei
Xei, you’re always so positive. Thumbs up to you.
Though if you ever want to fit in around here, clearly you are going to have to start chugging hatorade as soon as possible. :)
So here’s what the rankings looks like using the same Fangraphs component scores and the formula 0.7*FinancialResources + 0.18*PresentTalent + 0.09*FutureTalent + 0.03*Baseball Ops … (by the way, the Mets’ component scores don’t add up to the total overall rating score that’s listed on their post – I’m assuming their BaseballOps score is actually 78.33 – I blame Madoff’s Ponzi scheme for the error; all other orgs’ scores total up correctly) …
Rank. Team (improvement vs Fangraphs overall ranking)
1. NYY (+0 spots), 2. BOS (+0), 3. PHI (+0), 4. TEX (+3), 5. LAA (+7), 6. ATL (-1), 7. MIN (-1), 8. SFG (+3), 9. TOR (-1), 10. CHC (+9), 11. DET (+5), 12. COL (-2), 13. CHW (+1), 14. CIN (-5), 15. TBR (-11), 16. STL (-3), 17. SEA (+0), 18. BAL (-3), 19. NYM (+2), 20. MIL (+2), 21. LAD (+2), 22. WAS (+2), 23. KCR (+2), 24. OAK (-6), 25. CLE (+1), 26. PIT (+2), 27. SDP (-7), 28. ARI (+1), 29. HOU (+1), 30. FLA (-3)
I’d argue that this list better reflects the health and viability of each organization.
I think the formula could use a little tweeking, but I see potential. I agree with a lot of the movement in the new list but a few do stick out. It’s virtually impossible to argue that Tampa Bay is the 15th healthiest organization in baseball no matter how heavily you weigh financial strength. I also doubt Florida belongs at #30 even if I can’t stand Loria.
Not to me. TBR has to continue making excellent decisions and getting their young players to sign long-term extensions that are very team-friendly, in the future.
Not. Gonna. Happen. Prospect success cannot remain at this high of a level, and no other propsect is going to sign a “Longo Deal”.
How much of TB’s long-term view is tied up in Longo’s contract?
To me, it is completely unfair and unreasonable to basically expect TB’s FO to be that much higher performing than the other front office’s.
They are going to have some bad luck, some prospects miss, and at time just make a bad decision or two.
Me too.
“However, unlike in the 1980s and 1990s, the Yankees are no longer a retirement home for the overpaid superstar in decline.”
They don’t have aging overpaid superstars now except for Jorge Posada, Derek Jeter, and Mariano Rivera. Teixeira and AROD will be old and over the hill in a few years, if not already. AJ Burnett is already over the hill. I think that they are still employing the same tactics of the past.
Tex is 31…you talk as if he’s 35
He’ll be 36 when the contract is up. Baseball players don’t age as well in the post steroid era.
He’ll be 36 when the contract is up. Baseball players don’t age as well in the post steroid era.
As opposed to Crawford and A-Gon who will be the same age they are now at the end of their contracts!!
Posada is aging and overpaid, true. But Rivera is just about as good as he ever was. Jeter is declining, but shortstop is such a weak position that he’s still one of the better available options. And yeah, Burnett is over the hill, but was he ever a superstar?
Burnett is paid like a superstar.
Burnett has the same contract as Lackey.
Yes it’s true that the Yanks are still overpaying their aging superstars but they can afford it. What’s scary is that they are also incorporating the use of modern metrics etc to evaluate players more accurately. There appears, however, to be some minor discord in the FO concerning the most efficient way to splash out the cash (apparently Cashman wasn’t thrilled about the Soria signing). Unfortunately with their huge financial resources (and a sharp FO) we’ll just have to get used to their continued dominance.
Again, someone forgot that the Yankees have a top five farm system. The reason they’re so old is because they’re so good.
I don’t see how people miss this point.
What does their age matter if they are still better than everyone else at what they do?
I wouldn’t call Posada overpaid at all either. Sure in the narrow-minded view of this single season he may be making a bit much, but he has more than produced enough value over his career with the Yankees. Ditto for Jeter. Double for Mo.
A-rod will have a hard time meeting the demands of his contract, but THAT is what the financial advantage is for. If you are going to pay someone that late into their career, they may as well be once in a lifetime players.
Uh, the Yankees don’t have a top 5 farm system.
“Uh, the Yankees don’t have a top 5 farm system”
Uh, yeah they do.
According to who? Find me one single respected evaluator who has the Yankees in the top 5. KLaw has them at 9, Boston at 11.
Keith Law is a not a professional talent evaluator, he’s a mouthpiece.
His opinion is only worth the paper it isn’t even printed on.
Oh ok, I suppose you know more about minor league talent than someone who does it for a living. Give me a break.
Does Baseball America count?
How about about a site called FanGraphs.com? Maybe you’re heard of it.
Can we get a little more explanation from FG writers who think the Yankees present talent is number 1? I have a tough time justifying the Yankees over the Red Sox right now, given they are fairly close in terms of offense and the Red Sox having a clear edge when it comes to starting pitching.
Wait, what? Clear edge in pitching? How does that compute? In terms of comparisons, the starting pitching is about equal with the same amount of solid pitching versus question marks. I would say that Beckett, Lackey, and Matsuzaka are just as much question marks as Burnett, Nova, and Garcia. Ultimately, the Yankees edge it with a better bullpen.
You think an unproven “b” list rookie (Nova) and free agent no one wanted (Garcia) and a headcase who pitches well one out of every three years (Burnett) is as much a question mark as a guy with one bad year in his entire career (Lackey), an out of shape but otherwise prolific player with one bad year (Beckett) and one of the best pitchers in the world who hasn’t adjusted well to the US?(Dice K). I might give you Burnett as the equal of that group but Nova and Garcia are far bigger question marks.
Whahuh? Last I checked, Burnett projects to be the best of that bunch- and he’s comparable Matsuzaka (who is the worst of the 3 Red Sox starters mentioned). I’m not here claiming that Lackey or Beckett is an ace anymore, but they’re a whole category better than Burnett.
And even Matsuzaka projects to be better than Nova and the latest arm off the scrap heap. (Though I fondly remember the days when Freddy G the Mariner helped propel my fantasy teams to glory, that Freddy’s dead, and he ain’t coming back … Unless it’s to fight Jason, which would be an entirely different context)
Actually, Garcia’s comparable to Matsuzaka, ESPN’s “best fifth starter.
*one of the best pitchers in the world who hasn’t adjusted well to the US*
Seriously, I have not laughed this hard all year.
one of the best pitchers in the world who hasn’t adjusted well to the US?
This is easily the most hilarious fanboy sentence ever posted to this site.
I mean, it’s simply amazing.
It’s 2011. He came over in 2007. When will he “adjust”??
I think this might top the #6 ranking.
Hilarious.
Maybe Dice-K hasn’t adjusted to the U.S. game because his “gyroball” was confiscated by Customs.
Hurray! This futile exercise is over. The regular season can commence!
I’m Bill James, Bitch!
I think every non-Yankee fan threw up when they aaw this. This review is nothing more than an affirmation that baseball is not meant to be fair to other teams. The Yankees got outbid one time by a team with the third highest payroll and now that’s affirmation that they aren’t just buying all their success? Let’s consider for a minute which team gave the two worst free agent deals this offseason: Its the team you ranked #1. I’d love to be wrong, but I’m not. The Soriano and Jeter deals would be suicide for any other team and the Yankees were rightly criticized for making them– yet here they are at #1? Don’t you guys see the massive failure of logic there? How often do the Yankees actually made a deal that wouldn’t be suicide for any other team? (The Swisher deal was a good one, any others?) Rivera, Cano, Teixiera, Sabathia, Posada and A-Rod are unquestionably good players but in each case the Yankees paid far more than any other team would AND gave too many years. Even the Granderson deal would be an epic fail for any other team.
What you’ve just done is reward the rich kid in the class for being the best in his economics class when all he did was take $10,000 from his daddy and manage not to lose it all in the first year. I really, really thought fangraphs was better than this.
I donno, it does take more talent than you think to not lose your shirt in baseball. The Yankees spent quite a few years throwing money at crappy, old FA that simply flushed money down the drain- having some very inconsistent seasons as a result. The last couple of years, they’re actually being somewhat clever, and it makes them very dangerous. I’m not saying their front office is all that good, but it’s been making much better decisions than previously (i.e. actually developing talent again).
How are Cano, CC, Tex ir Rivera overpaid? And how in the Grandy deal a failure?
He doesn’t know. He just felt like going on an huge emotional rant while throwing out random names, years, and numbers. The tub of ice cream left in his fridge should help the poor guy feel better though. No worries.
Mo also turned down more years from Boston, if you believe the rumor mill.
The Jeter deal is far superior to the Howard extension. By far, I mean a goddamn shit fucking ton better.
Clearly the Phillies are on death watch.
Garrett, I’m a Phillies fan and I take exception with you saying the Phillies are on death watch. The Howard extension does not indicate that they are on death watch. It indicates that they have a Death Wish. Death Wish 9: Charles Bronson’s Corpse Shows Ryan Howard How to Swing at a 3-1 Breaking Balls in the Dirt.
What did you think these rankings were going to tell you, that the Rays are the “most healthy” organization because they do it the “right way”? News flash, their little run will end swiftly as they are relying on exceedingly high success rates with young players to compete.
If you are arguing that spending money on your major league talent is a good idea, and is rewarded with success… I don’t think you will find many that disagree. Quite a few teams have the financial ability to spend more on ML talent and compete more consistently, but they choose not to.
Boston finally jumped in the deep end of the pool, they never get to go back and they never get to cry foul about money again. They bleed their upper levels of their farm system dry… and deserve to be ranked higher? When this Crawford contract goes south of the border, I hope you come back with such gusto.
Let’s consider for a minute which team gave the two worst free agent deals this offseason: Its the team you ranked #1.
Wait, the Nationals were #1??
Stan,
What you seem to be saying is that how it could be, should be, or would be is how these rankings “should be” determined. However, they are not determined as such. The rankings are determined by how it is. If the Yankees’ ability to field a World Series Contender every year is greatly enhanced, or largely dictated, by their inherent financial advantages, that doesn’t change the fact that they have fielded and likely will continue to field a top-flight team.
If the point is to rate which teams have the best current and future outlook, you can’t dismiss a team’s inherent advantages. You appear to be doing even more than that. It looks like you are using the Yankees’ advantages to detract from how you think they should be rated.
Yankees #1 in present talent? No. And it’s not close. That would be the Sox. It is surprising that there would be an overwhelming consensus in favour of a proposition that is pretty clearly incorrect and is relatively less subjective.
Please provide your justification that it’s “not close.”
RSW lines would be a damn good start.
Dustin Pedroia’s soft, childlike bones disagree.
You are right, it’s not close at all.
The starting staffs are essentially the same.
The Yankees bullpen is way better.
The Yankees lineup is much longer and potent. You can’t find a Salty or a Scutaro playing everyday in pinstripes.
Where exactly does Boston have the upper hand?
“The starting staffs are essentially the same.”
Flatly incorrect. Just wholly wrong.
Try again.
Yankee bullpen is better? Are you joking? And I’d take the Sox lineup to be honest, I’ll see your Scutaro and Saltalamacchia and raise you Posada and Russell Martin. Plus Lowrie probably takes over for Scutaro and he put up a wOBA of .393 last year.
Catcher is a wash
1B Gonzalez>>Tex
2B Cano>Pedroia
SS is a wash (Lowrie>Jeter>Scutaro, but the gap between Lowrie and Jeter is bigger)
3B is advantage Red Sox; A-Rod is declining and Youk put up more WAR last year despite playing 30 fewer games
LF advantage Red Sox
CF advantage Yankees
RF advantage Yankees
DH advantage Red Sox
Boston has a better lineup, rotation, and bullpen. Don’t see how this is a question.
You don’t see how because you don’t deal with reality. You can’t see through the RedSox tint on your glasses.
Obviously Jed Lowrie is one of the most prolific hitters in the league with that .390 wOBA… hahaaaaa
How much is each > worth?
Yankee bullpen is better? Are you joking?
Why would he be joking? The Yankees probably have the best bullpen in baseball, or close to it.
What objective measure is there to say the Sox have a better bullpen?
bsally:
Salty/Varitek is probably the worst catching tandem in the AL. I don’t see why you’re criticizing Posada, he’s actually still an above average hitter, which Varitek hasn’t been in like 3 years and Salty has never been.
Adrian Gonzalez is NOT Albert Pujols. Gonzalez vs Tex is essentially a push. I might be more inclined to take Tex because he has no platoon split. Where Gonzalez has a slight one.
Let’s see Jed Lowrie play a full season before we say he is better than jeter, please.
as for Youk vs Arod, yeah Youk is better, but Arod is healthy for the first time since 2008, let’s see how this plays out.
The rest of the lineup i agree wit.
But the sox’s bullpen is not better.
Mo vs Capt Epic Blown Save?
Soriano vs Bard is a push
DRob, Joba, Logan and Feliciano are better than Jenks, Wheeler and the randos
Edge Yankees
The only thing the Sox have an advantage in is the rotation, but really, it’s not much of one when there are question marks surrounding Beckett, Lackey (Mr. declining peripherals/curse at the defense), and Dice-BB
Actually I don’t like either team. No Red Sox bias here.
I’d say that the Boston bullpen is way deeper-Jenks and Wheeler are far superior to Joba/Robertson. Obviously Rivera is inhuman and much better than Papelbon, but until he’s used correctly instead of pitching in relatively low leverage situations (i.e. the 9th inning) it’s less of an advantage than you think. Bard and Soriano is probably a wash.
Adrian Gonzalez is not Pujols, true, but he’s a much much better hitter than Teixeira and his defense is just as good.
You are not a RedSox fan? Well you have everyone here fooled.
The only thing Gonzalez is better at than Teixeira is hitting NL pitching. Highly irrelevant.
Jenks is a has been/never was (highly overrated closer and should have lost that job years ago)…
Dan Wheeler can’t hold the jock of Robertson or Joba. Is that a serious comment?
Yes, just because I have taken the perfectly logical position that the vast majority of knowledgable people have in saying that the Red Sox are better than the Yankees that must make me a Red Sox fan.
Jenks is the best pitcher of the four we’ve discussed; to call him overrated is just silly. A FIP/xFIP of of 2.59/2.54 is ridiculous.
Look, I’m not saying the Yankees are bad or that they don’t deserve to be the number 1 organization. They probably do. Ranking them #1 in present talent is very silly though.
I give you that the Sox have a slight edge, but it most certainly is close.
Lowrie lowrie lowrie lowrie, how about we talk about Lowrie > Jeter when Lowrie > Scutaro which has YET TO HAPPEN. Lets see lowrie put together something that resembles a full productive season please.
Are you sure the brand wasn’t stronger around, say, 2001?
A quibble about a pretty meaningless statement, but in any case, I’d say they looked unstoppable back then.
I know it’s only one piece of the puzzle in brand strength, but their attendance increased every year from 2001 until 2008. It only took a hit when they moved into the new place, cut total seating, and jacked up prices.
Stan-
To say the Yankees paid “far more” for Tex is to rewrite history. The red sox were right there as were Baltimore and Washington. The red sox also tried to get arod from Texas before new York did. You can argue he resigning was dumb buy don’t act like they took him on when noone else could or would. And Beckett and lackeys stats have been tending down for a couple years. They are pretty much equals to burnett which is not a compliment. Dice K hastnt adjusted to the US? Can I buy a pair of your rose colored homer glasses or do I have to buy a pink hat first
As I remember the National’s offered a larger amount, with a lower AAV (10/200). And the Red Sox were never given a chance to counter the Yankee offer, they probably would have.
Of course Cameron ends up being the guy writing the Yankees summary.
Of course.
This is a piss poor write-up Dave. The yankees spend money, waaaa…
I get more insight anywhere else, thanks for the huge letdown after a week of reading these articles.
Besides the first paragraph, it was very bearable to read
The 11th rank SF Giants are the best team there is now, the best team there was last year, and the best team going forward. The Yanks, RedSox, and Phillies are all very good, but it’s pretty darn obvious that these rankings are wrong. You guys here at Fangaffs and at ESPN really dropped the ball.
“The 11th rank SF Giants are the best team there is now”
Why is that? because they won last year?
If you truly feel this is the case, I hope you headed to any, any, any sports book and placed all of your money, and any you could borrow, on the “over” for SF wins. Their projected win total is well below BOS, PHI, et al.
Did you misremember last season like all the others here? SF has the best young rotation in the game : Lincecum, Sanchez, Cain, Bumgarner. I’ll gladly put those 4 up against any other rotation. Pitching is what wins in the play-offs and these guys have the best.
They have a great pen too: headed by Romo and Wilson
The best young superstar in the game : Buster Posey
Another ROY candidate: Brandon Belt
Another great young hitter: Sandavol
Hungry Veterans who want to win now: Huff, Sanchez, Torres, Burrell, Tejada, Derosa
I’m no Howard fan, but with all the hate going around 2011 seems like one of those years when PHL finishes with the best record in the NL and Howard takes the MVP with a 42 HR 133 RBI season, despite trailing Pujols by 2.5 WAR … And then we all go ape-poop about it b/c we really thought advanced metrics were gaining ground.
Two thoughts-
First, the team that just made the ridiculous Soriano signing is ranked 3rd in baseball operations? Are we ignoring the days when Randy Levine forgets to take his meds and orders Cashman to make bad decisions at gunpoint? Am I missing something in how these rankings work?
Second, in spite of not agreeing with the Yankees being ranked above Boston with regard to present talent, and not agreeing with their 3rd overall ranking in baseball operations, they should be ranked first overall, if only because you’ve vastly understated their financial advantage. The Yankees should always be the favorite because they will continue to have the most money for the foreseeable future and will be able to compete every year.
I honestly don’t think the Yanks have a budget to meet as far as making money. It’s how much money do you want to make. They could probably sustain a 300M dollar payroll with the money they bring in.
As far as the farm, I’m always skeptical about Yankee prospects. They seem to be overrated like some people go “OMG the Yankees are keeping this guy instead of trading him for an all star? He must be the next Andy Pettite (Phil Hughs) or the next Roger Clemens (Joba chamberlain)”.
They DO have a strong farm system and as a Braves fan I’m appreciative of Arodys Vizcaino so far.
Not really true.
Each year Forbes comes out with their Business of Baseball numbers and looks at a number of things. One being the % of revenue each teams spend and the Yankees where in line with every single other team. They don’t “dig deep” into their pockets when they need to. They know how much revenue they make and spend the same % as nearly every other team in the league.
Percentage of Revenue Spent on Payroll (from Pos article linked below)
• League average: 46.6%
• New York Yankees: 46.9%
They just make THAT much more than everyone else. Top 3:
Yankees Revenues in 2009 = $441M
Mets Revenues in 2009 = $268M
Red Sox Revenues in 2009 = $266<
But they absolutely have a budget
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_posnanski/04/19/baseball.revenue/index.html#ixzz1IHEQR0qC
The baseball ops thing is stupid.
Let’s say you have a guy with no arms and no legs, and another guy with legs and arms, you throw them both in water. The guy with no legs and no arms drowns and the other doesn’t. Who is smarter? Exactly.
How the HELL can a team with 210M dollar payroll NOT have 5 quality SP? great baseball ops? Shit man the Athletics SP are better.
To me the Yanks should never be higher than 15 in baseball ops unless they do some extraordinary 1996-2003 stuff.
A’s have a better rotation? Come back in september with that.
All your analogy proves that there is no fair way to judge front offices. There are no park adjustments, no evening the playing field, each team has a different pool of resources.
But to say that a FO with more money should never be higher than 15 makes little to no sense. You have to judge them on how they do with the assets they have. Do they invest money in all facets of the organization, do they take advantage of the extra resources where there is less risk like the draft, international signings, etc. How good are they at evaluating talent, deciding who is worth locking up early, and signing them long term below market value.
I don’t know why everyone just associates a GM with their free agency signings.
In terms of your point on 5 quality pitchers… having money doesn’t = the ability to just take any player you want. They tried for their guy, it didn’t work – not because of the money. They have some great pitching talent on the door step in guys like Banuelos… and other guys with high upside behind him.
Just because you have 50 bucks doesn’t mean you need to eat steak. Sometimes holding off on signing a player is the best move a GM can make.
That all said, I hope Banuelos is a bust and the Yanks starting pitching implodes… of course, that won’t happen.
I don’t see how “the front office finally realized not to be really stupid” gives them the third best ops department in baseball…
Wait, people are complaining about a concisely written piece on a number one ranked team? Fewer written words probably mean that there is very little room to painstakingly explain the areas of disagreement. Would you really try to discuss at length something that is obvious?
I like short and succinct.
I just assumed that the present talent ranking means the FG staff has figured out how to quantify “intangibles.”
The Yankees front office gets criticized for making moves that other teams would be crippled by. It doesn’t mean they are stupid. It means they know how to leverage their resources. Do they make mistakes, yeah who doesn’t. Nobody piles on the Rays for the Pat Burrell signing? The Soriano signing isn’t stupid because it in no way hand-cuffs them in the future. They are still 15-20 million under their budget. Next year Posada’s contract comes off the books and they’ll have 30+million to spend and right now it looks like all they’ll be shopping for is maybe a DH or catcher (depending on what Martin and Montero do this year) and a back end starter. So they aren’t going to regret the Soriano contract and it makes the team better. The idea that the Red Sox pen is better is laughable both Soriano and Rivera were significantly better than Papelbon a year ago. And it’s not like there were better things to spend the money on. They also never get credit for savvy moves they do make (Swisher for Betemit). Plus mid-year they consistently use their monetary leverage to land players like Lance Berkman and Kerry Wood to help the team. Does the AJ Burnett contract look bad? Sure, but it didn’t limit their ability to pursue Cliff Lee. We just have to accept that the Yankees front office is smart for knowing that they can afford to take monetary risks that others can’t.
I lot of teams could have taken on the money of Wood and Berkman. The fact is that they didn’t want to.
The pioneer Communion is a Catholic celebration. You can find Lutheran churches that celebrate it too. However, it is a staple in the Catholic religion. You may well be wondering, “what is First Communion?”.
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