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  1. Question: what does it mean to say a pitch has “depth”?

    Comment by Paul Clarke — November 23, 2012 @ 9:10 am

  2. Vertical movement.

    Comment by vilifyingforce — November 23, 2012 @ 9:14 am

  3. Wish there was something on Morrow here. Hope Bruce does a good job with the new Jays pitchers this season

    Comment by DQ — November 23, 2012 @ 10:22 am

  4. It means both horizontal AND vertical movement on a pitch. A straight dropping splitter doesn’t have depth and a cutter doesn’t have depth. But a Chris Sale slider has a s*** load of depth.

    Comment by Are you even serious? — November 23, 2012 @ 11:15 am

  5. Thanks guys.

    Comment by Paul Clarke — November 23, 2012 @ 11:59 am

  6. Would love to see another lefty in Cecil in the pen next year so Oliver can take some more high leverage roles. Farrell always seemed a little reluctant to bring Darren out.

    Comment by Petetown Matt — November 23, 2012 @ 12:02 pm

  7. Is BW to blame for the injuries sustained to the Jays starting rotation last year?

    Comment by Imran Pirani — November 23, 2012 @ 12:03 pm

  8. Yes, all of them. He is an evil Orioles double agent.

    Comment by Greg W. — November 23, 2012 @ 12:35 pm

  9. Baseball physics guys like Al Nathan say there is no such thing as late movement. Yet baseball guys, hitters, pitchers, and here coaches talk about it in reverential terms. I don’t doubt the players experience and I would love to hear a discussion that reconciles the two seemingly opposite schools of thought on ‘late movement’.

    Comment by ttnorm — November 23, 2012 @ 12:58 pm

  10. Late movement is a phenomenon caused by the the difference between where your brain expects the ball to be and where it actually is. Your brain starts anticipating when the ball should be once it’s released from the pitcher’s hand but when it clues in that everything is not going according to plan (i.e. according to gravitational forces alone) it suddenly realizes the drop, causing the mental sensation of late break. If our perception didn’t rely on predictively calculating where objects in motion should be in space the phenomenon would not exist. A ‘late breaking’ pitch is simply one that breaks a lot.

    I’ve probably mangled that explanation a bit but I think Robert Adair talks about it (and much more) in ‘The Physics of Baseball.’

    Comment by Adam Dunn — November 23, 2012 @ 1:14 pm

  11. “A ‘late breaking’ pitch is simply one that breaks a lot.”

    I don’t know if I agree with this. You would call Janssen or Rivera’s cutter a late-breaking one, but you wouldn’t call Sergio Romo’s slider late breaking, even though it breaks more than Janssen or Rivera’s pitch.

    Comment by Alex — November 23, 2012 @ 4:00 pm

  12. Assuming Bruce is even back. Jays haven’t actually named their coaches for next year yet and Gibbons is a new manager.

    Comment by Joshua — November 23, 2012 @ 6:47 pm

  13. Well, a pitch with a lot of “loop” wouldn’t cause the cognitive dissonance that creates late break. You don’t hear about “late breaking” curveballs because they are slow, some sliders are basically horizontal curves, I may be misremembering but I believe Romo’s is in that category.

    Comment by deadpool — November 24, 2012 @ 2:07 am

  14. Great post Thanks For sharing This!

    Comment by Read More — November 24, 2012 @ 7:05 am

  15. I am a Brett Cecil fan.

    Comment by Jack — November 24, 2012 @ 2:29 pm

  16. Actually, I am of the opinion that a late-breaking pitch (i.e., one that is perceived to break late) is one that breaks only a little. Rivera’s cutter does not break much, only up to about 5 inches. But that is more than enough to break a lot of bats.

    Comment by Alan Nathan — November 25, 2012 @ 4:20 pm

  17. Man it would be awesome if this were actually Adam Dunn.

    Comment by Matt Hunter — November 25, 2012 @ 9:33 pm

  18. Aaron Loup

    Also Oliver isn’t confirmed back yet. Could retire

    Comment by exxrox — November 26, 2012 @ 3:13 am

  19. I tend to think that late-breaking usually describes a hard pitch that moves more than expected. So a cutter or slider can be late-breaking because it looks like a fastball but then breaks where the batter doesn’t expect it, as opposed to a curveball which appears to break the whole way because there is much more movement. So it’s a balance–late-breaking pitches move more than expected but are relatively hard and straight compared to other breaking balls.

    Comment by Brendan — November 26, 2012 @ 11:07 am

  20. Bruce Walton will not be back as the Jays pitching coach. It’s a sad thing because he’s been very good with interviews and he’s been with the organization for a long time.

    My best wishes for Bruce Walton in the future.

    Comment by siggian — November 26, 2012 @ 4:31 pm

  21. Have you ever discussed “late movement” with a pitching coach?

    Comment by ttnorm — November 26, 2012 @ 5:03 pm

  22. I’m touched, this is the most upvotes I’ve ever had on Fangraphs.

    Comment by Greg W — November 27, 2012 @ 8:00 pm

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