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  1. Quick question: absent player-specific factors (e.g., age, injury history), is there any commonly accepted monetary value for an additional year on a contract? For example, if we know that a player is worth/offered a $5MM, 1yr contract, how confidently can we say what the value of the player’s 2yr offer should be? My understanding is that those player-specific factors are too strong an influence to make this analysis useful, but I was wondering if someone had tried anyway.

    Corollary: is there any time when offering a shorter contract of equivalent total value is preferable to a longer contract (i.e., is there any time that a $5MM/1yr is preferable to a $5MM/2yr)? I can’t see why, unless there are some weird roster or FA compensation rules that come into play.

    Comment by Erik — November 5, 2010 @ 4:21 pm

  2. Bonus points to Scotty Pods for turning down 2 mil.

    Comment by Brad Johnson — November 5, 2010 @ 4:27 pm

  3. “Corollary: is there any time when offering a shorter contract of equivalent total value is preferable to a longer contract (i.e., is there any time that a $5MM/1yr is preferable to a $5MM/2yr)? I can’t see why, unless there are some weird roster or FA compensation rules that come into play.”

    You answered it yourself actually. You want to get Type A or B compensation out of the player. For instance, your team is rebuilding. A Brandon Webb type player wants to reestablish himself. Let’s say this player has a better chance of rebounding than Webb actually does. You could entice him to your non-contender with promises of playing time and a slightly higher contract. If he hits gold and dominates, you can offer arb later on and pick up 2 easy picks.

    Comment by Brad Johnson — November 5, 2010 @ 4:32 pm

  4. Cameron —> #6Org

    Comment by Tick — November 5, 2010 @ 4:32 pm

  5. Teams don’t pay for on-field production. They pay for marketability to their fans. Jeter’s marketability to the baseball world will take a hit as his production fades, but it won’t budge with Yankees fans.

    Jeter’s value to Yankees fans transcends the sport. He could bat .200 the rest of his career, and Yankees fans would support him. If you don’t understand this, you either don’t live in NY, or you don’t know any Yankees fans.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 4:36 pm

  6. He’s probably the closest thing to royalty in NY since Sinatra.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 4:37 pm

  7. I think this is a good point. Jeter has a lot of monetary value beyond his baseball production. Now, Francouer, Klaassen, and Chen…?

    Comment by OremLK — November 5, 2010 @ 4:38 pm

  8. “However, after 2010 and at 36 years old, Jeter’s 2009 is looking more and more like a Last Great Season from a great player.”

    I vaguely remember hearing this same thing after 2005, and 2007, and 2008… although there was certainly something “off” about him this season I wouldn’t expect him to trail off into the sunset either. Hopefully Girardi follows through with what he said and will re-evaluate the lineup on merit and not precedent. Getting Jeter out of the leadoff spot can only help.

    Comment by Tom B — November 5, 2010 @ 4:39 pm

  9. You really consider Scott Podsednik deluded for turning down two million? I realize his saber stats show him as average, but the industry as a whole loves this guy and what he brings.

    Comment by John — November 5, 2010 @ 4:40 pm

  10. Sinatra wasn’t from NY

    Comment by MadDog — November 5, 2010 @ 4:41 pm

  11. Yes but he was royalty in NY.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 4:42 pm

  12. And if the Yanks don’t get Cliff Lee but throw Arod type money at Jeter I think you’ll see a very very large subset of Yankee fans pretty agitated with Captain Jeter. If you don’t believe this you are not from planet earth.

    Comment by MadDog — November 5, 2010 @ 4:43 pm

  13. High Oh!

    Comment by this guy says — November 5, 2010 @ 4:44 pm

  14. I would have expected Beltre to be on this list… for more reasons than Jeter.

    Jeter is not deluded, he KNOWS what he can and will get from the Yankees.
    Beltre turned down $10mil a year after a lot of players had to take pay CUTS.
    I think its fairly puclib knowledge that Beltre only shows up during contract years
    … and he is 31 going on 40 (seriously, does anyone believe he’s actually 31?)

    Comment by descender — November 5, 2010 @ 4:46 pm

  15. Well, Chen IS a Boras client…so, as a lefty, we’ll be hearing about how he’s the next Koufax before long. Too bad Omar Minaya isn’t still out there for him to convince.

    Comment by tbr — November 5, 2010 @ 4:47 pm

  16. One important thing to remember about this whole six year deal business is the sources it was derived from. The Chen and Francoeur tidbits seem to be first hand knowledge from the players themselves, while Heyman’s “industry sources suggest” (i.e. “I’m grabbing this quote out of my ass to create something for people to write about”) tweet sounds far less credible.

    Comment by Tim — November 5, 2010 @ 4:50 pm

  17. You don’t understand Yankees fans. Jeter is a fixed cost. There is no such thing as “Yankees without Jeter”. It’s not even considered possible. The shock of losing Lee would go away in a few days. The shock of seeing Jeter walk would last at least 25 years.

    Jeter is Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra….you don’t get it dude.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 4:54 pm

  18. You become the most deluded person in the comments. Podsednik was not even mentioned in the article…

    I’ll entertain it anyway…

    The “industry” that loves him so much that they’ve never given him more than a 1 year deal?

    Yes, those career .700 OPS guys are flying off the shelves.

    He got just under $3mil for his first pro contract… and hasn’t made half of that since (getting cut out of spring training by the Rockies in the process)… that’s safely delusional.

    Comment by descender — November 5, 2010 @ 4:59 pm

  19. i guess you were responding to the brad johnson comment.

    there is a reply button so I don’t feel bad for calling you deluded though… :)

    Comment by descender — November 5, 2010 @ 5:00 pm

  20. Dang, Klassen, you’re really not doing well in this poll.

    Comment by Thomas — November 5, 2010 @ 5:00 pm

  21. I live in New Jersey, know plenty of Yankee fans, and can say without a doubt that the ones who actually follow baseball (so not the typical Yankee fan) would pretty displeased with Jeter if his contract kept the Yankees from signing Cliff Lee. Then again who knows maybe Yankees fans have some kind of secret mancrush for Jorge De La Rosa or something.

    Comment by SF 55 for life — November 5, 2010 @ 5:07 pm

  22. “Teams don’t pay for on-field production.”

    HAHA, are you serious?

    I’ve noticed a lot of your comments recently and most are pretty outlandish. This one might take the cake.

    Comment by SF 55 for life — November 5, 2010 @ 5:09 pm

  23. There is no such thing as “Yankees without Jeter”. It’s not even considered possible. The shock of losing Lee would go away in a few days. The shock of seeing Jeter walk would last at least 25 years. Jeter is Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra….you don’t get it dude.”

    Really? I missed the part when the Yankees fell apart with no Mantle, Dimaggio, and Berra. I thought they’ve done pretty well the last two decades without those guys. Derek Jeter could walk this offseason and if the Yankees win the 2011 World Series everything will be fine. Derek Jeter needs the Yankees way more than the Yankees need Derek Jeter. Jeter’s value to the Yankees goes beyond on field production, but you overrate it. You claim the Yankees will support him when he’s hitting .200? Last I checked they’ve already booed Jeter and Rivera when they’ve struggled in the past. Yes it was limited but if Jeter becomes a liability, which he very well could become, Yankees fans wouldn’t give their blind loyalty. Yankee fans value winning over everything else. If Derek Jeter costs them wins he won’t be supported, simple as that.

    Comment by beasleyrockah — November 5, 2010 @ 5:13 pm

  24. None of these comments make a player deluded. Of course, these players may be deluded, but if I were Jeff Francoeur, I would want to play every day too. He’s not going to say, “yeah, I want to be a bench player next year.” Same with Chen and Jeter. If they ask for 2 and 6 year deals respectively, maybe they can get 1 and 3, respectively. If Chen asked for a one year deal, he might end up with a minor league deal.

    Comment by supermets — November 5, 2010 @ 5:17 pm

  25. Flags fly forever…

    Jeter won’t help win next year as much as having Cliff Lee would help. I know a majority of Yankee fans don’t feel the same way, but there is a minortity that given a choice between the two would select Lee. While I appreciate everything Jeter has done for the Yankees, I value winning another WS more. You keep using absolutes without acknowleding that not everyone thinks the same as you with respect to Jeter.

    Plus signing Lee keeps Lee from signing with another AL contender. Without Lee I don’t think the Rangers beat the Yankees in the post-season.

    Comment by MadDog — November 5, 2010 @ 5:18 pm

  26. it’s definitely klaassen. sonny sharrock will only play half-birthdays.

    Comment by frank pepe — November 5, 2010 @ 5:29 pm

  27. I think beltre will get 3 yrs at 12-15M per. His defense is awesome and has been consistent. he had a good offensive 2010, and his yrs at safeco were somewhat park-affected.

    definitely agree w/ his decision to decline the option.

    Comment by brendan — November 5, 2010 @ 5:36 pm

  28. Hey Matt —

    Not to be the annoying schoolmarm, but your article ought to be titled “Most Delusional Person of the Off-Season,” unless you’re specifically concerned with the guy who is getting the worst advice from his agent.

    Also: if you get the birthday party you call for above, can I come? “Ask the Ages” (with both Sharrock and E. Jones, plus Pharaoh Sanders and the clinically underrated Charnett Moffett) is one of the most slept-on jazz records of the last 25 years.

    And finally: I agree that Jeter doesn’t belong on this list. Based on the marketability/face-of-the-franchise issues, Casey Close has a fairly legitimate argument for getting his client a deal that transcends his mere on-field value. And as @Tom B points out above, last year wasn’t the first time we’ve seen an “end is nigh” season out of Jeter. This time it could be for real, but it’s also plausible that Jeter bounces back.

    Francouer and Chen, on the other hand, are (almost incredibly) under the laughable impression that they are everyday players. I don’t think Francoeur has any conception whatsoever of how quintessentially replaceable he is. That fits the definition of “delusional” a lot better.

    Comment by Graham — November 5, 2010 @ 5:41 pm

  29. I mean Jeter walking to another team. Mantle and Dimaggio didn’t sign with other teams.

    If Jeter retires, that’s one thing. If he signs with the Orioles, it would be an embarrassment to the franchise that the Yankees will not allow.

    Booing Jeter a little for a few at bats is not the same as allowing him to sign elsewhere. If your point is that there are SOME Yankee fans that exist, that prefer Lee, then all I have to say is you need to find something better to do than to state the obvious.

    The point is clearly that Jeter’s value transcends the game. Anyone who professes to be student of the game knows this to be true. Jeter’s legacy is an extremely valuable asset that is extremely difficult to build.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 6:10 pm

  30. It’s a BUSINESS you monkey.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 6:12 pm

  31. Jeter will be signed for a sum far outweighing his production on the field, and it will be a great investment regardless of what happens to Lee. Jeter’s legacy will pay off for decades after he has played his last game.

    Comment by this guy — November 5, 2010 @ 6:14 pm

  32. I originally went with “Most Delusional,” but it seems pretty harsh. I do think that Francoeur might be getting bad advice from his agent, but that’s mostly unfounded opinion.

    _Ask the the Ages_ is indeed a great jazz and great guitar album, although I personally find Moffett to be kinda irrelevant to the proceedings, on the rare occasions he can be heard. I know a lot of people feel differently about him, and his family is talented, but that’s just what I think. William Parker or the late Fred Hopkins would have been better choices. Still a great album that people don’t know about, kinda like Larry Young’s _Unity_, which is right up there with the best jazz albums ever.

    I did note that Jeter/Close were probably just posturing. Still, this season is by far Jeter’s worst full season — below average offensively for the first time in his full-time career, and his defense regressed back to past levels.The curve isn’t getting any less steep at this point. 3/40 would be generous, and I don’t know what he wants, but if he thinks he should get more than that, he’s wrong, especially when once thinks about how the Yankees could use the money elsewhere. It’s been shown time and time again that winning pretty much trumps everything else, no matter how many times journalists claimed that, e.g., “Nolan Ryan brings 10,000 extra people to the park every time he pitches” or whatever.

    Thanks for the comment.

    Comment by Matt Klaassen — November 5, 2010 @ 6:22 pm

  33. >>Derek Jeter could walk this offseason and if the Yankees win the 2011 World Series everything will be fine.<<

    Beasley, this is a little like saying I can spend all my savings on lottery tickets and be fine as long as I win the jackpot. The point is that the majority of loudmouthed and ignorant Yankee fandom would demand the Steinbrenner's blood if they let Jeter walk but failed to win the world series.

    Comment by Bigmouth — November 5, 2010 @ 6:22 pm

  34. I vote for Isaiah Thomas.

    Wait, wrong sport.

    Comment by don — November 5, 2010 @ 6:24 pm

  35. Jeter lost a lot of his game this year as his age caught up with him. His speed going down has a huge effect on his BABIP and therefore his AVG. If he stays in NY for six years, it will be just as embarrassing as him going to an NL team.

    Nothing would be as embarassing as him going to the orioles, though (as much as I’d like to see that happen as a Blue Jays fan).

    Comment by Matt Defalco — November 5, 2010 @ 6:29 pm

  36. That was last offseason

    Comment by Steven Ellingson — November 5, 2010 @ 6:29 pm

  37. He makes a good point, though. Yankees fans value winning more than Jeter. If they get Cliff and not Jeter, and if they go on to win the WS, no fans will be missing Jeter.

    Comment by Matt Defalco — November 5, 2010 @ 6:31 pm

  38. I think Jeter is the most delusional but I voted for Klaassen because its funnier.

    Comment by mattymatty2000 — November 5, 2010 @ 6:32 pm

  39. Gold.

    Comment by Matt Defalco — November 5, 2010 @ 6:33 pm

  40. Klaassen has intangibles like you’ve never seen before

    Comment by Steven Ellingson — November 5, 2010 @ 6:40 pm

  41. Yeah, Beltre was one of the best 5 players in the league last year. Not league averageish like Jeter. Big difference there.

    Comment by Steven Ellingson — November 5, 2010 @ 6:42 pm

  42. But no, I do not believe he’s 31.

    Comment by Steven Ellingson — November 5, 2010 @ 6:42 pm

  43. Give Yankees the following two options, and they’ll take option 2.

    1) Miss the playoffs with Jeter as your shortstop in 2011
    2) Make the playoffs with a different shortstop in 2011, and Jeter plays for a random team

    The vast majority would think it sucks to see him leave, but ultimately they’d rather win then watch Jeter play.

    Look across town at the Mets. Mike Piazza WAS that franchise. He was as loved as any Met since Seaver, and even though his game was slipping there were a lot of Mets fans that wanted him back in 2006. The team made the difficult choice to let him go after the 2005 season, the Mets wound up making the playoffs, and the fans went nuts. They didn’t stay away from the ballpark just because Piazza was gone.

    Comment by vivalajeter — November 5, 2010 @ 7:12 pm

  44. What are you, his agent?

    I’m a Yankee fan all my life, and if Jeter hits .200 for a season, I want him off the team.

    Comment by snapper — November 5, 2010 @ 7:46 pm

  45. I said Francouer, because Jeter’ll get his money. Print it. Klaassen’ll keep writin’ and Chen is, like noted, left-handed.

    Comment by My echo and bunnymen — November 5, 2010 @ 8:18 pm

  46. Neither was DiMaggio but he was royalty… and retired after a year like Jeter just had. Yankee fans want to win. Jeter should be a utility player… if he could field.

    Comment by algionfriddo — November 5, 2010 @ 8:50 pm

  47. I wish David Bowie, Joe Strummer, Issac Brock, Robert Smith, and Freddie Mercury could sing A Cappella at my initiation into the Armed Forces in a beautifully, depressed, angst-ridden harmony. However, sadly that will also not occur.

    Comment by My echo and bunnymen — November 5, 2010 @ 8:51 pm

  48. this guy –
    you should be added to Klassen’s poll becasue you are without a doubt the most delusional person posting today.
    Ive had the misfortune of reading several of your comments in each of the articles published today and every single time you manage to come across as arrogant, misinformed, and bitter.
    even when other posters (who are much more sympathetic to you than i am) kindly point out the flaws in your reasoning and offer up a much more logical analysis, you simply resort to name calling and classless attacks.
    perhaps you just enjoy starting arguments, or maybe you like being chastised for your ignorance, but when SEVERAL different people point out the fallacy of your reasoning it might be best to stop typing and listen

    Comment by cs3 — November 5, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

  49. LOL 6 years derek? bye bye

    Comment by awayish — November 5, 2010 @ 9:06 pm

  50. Francoeur is so easy to bash, so I voted for him.

    Comment by bonestock94 — November 5, 2010 @ 9:08 pm

  51. As soon as I got to the Koufax part I immediately thought Ollie. Good call.

    Comment by ritz — November 5, 2010 @ 9:17 pm

  52. As long as Dayton Moore has a job, Franceour will have a shot at playng every day somewhere.

    Comment by Jeff P — November 5, 2010 @ 9:37 pm

  53. I for one am a New Yorker that can’t wait to see Jeter and his smug face retire so I never have to see another one of his commercials again. Of course I’m a Yankees hating Mets fan so…

    Comment by Schu — November 5, 2010 @ 9:42 pm

  54. “loudmouthed and ignorant” are unnecessary words.

    “Yankee fandom” is all you needed to say :D

    Comment by Schu — November 5, 2010 @ 9:44 pm

  55. It’s Chen.

    Comment by James — November 5, 2010 @ 9:57 pm

  56. Judging from the multi-article rationalizations, it lives!

    I kid.

    Comment by wobatus — November 5, 2010 @ 10:38 pm

  57. The Hoodlum from Hoboken

    Comment by wobatus — November 5, 2010 @ 10:40 pm

  58. I know Yankee fans that don’t want them to sign Lee (not overpay Jeter either).

    Comment by wobatus — November 5, 2010 @ 10:42 pm

  59. Yeah, he is 31. There was a whole controversy because the Dodgers signed him too young. Pretty common knowledge. Wouldn’t have been an issue if he was faking being younger than he was. He faked being older.

    Comment by wobatus — November 5, 2010 @ 10:47 pm


    Dodgers signed him at 15 in 1994. Got punished for it.

    Comment by wobatus — November 5, 2010 @ 10:53 pm

  61. Psstch. Nolan Ryan STILL brings 10,000 extra people to the park when he shows up. Didn’t you SEE the Rangers playoffs? Packed house, Nolan Ryan on the field or in the stands like every game. Clearly, cause and effect. Assuming his “fan-magnetism” has faded since he retired, some sort of spillover effect was probably the only reason any fans showed up to watch the teams he played for.

    … Especially those Angels years, where I am not sure how much hope that team had except knowing Ryan was coming up in the rotation every 5 days.

    Comment by B N — November 5, 2010 @ 11:24 pm

  62. It’s a weird thing. I voted for Francouer, but I find his delusion to be more realistic than Chen’s. From what I can tell, Chen is aware that he’s kind of a marginal player but he really really wants to play in the big leagues I think. I bet if a team offered him a 1 year contract plus a 2nd year at league minimum, he’d take it. Unfortunately, I don’t see any team offering him more than 1 year, no way no how.

    Alternatively, Francouer seems to genuinely believe he’s still a good player. Unlike Chen though, teams seem to sometimes share this delusion. So he MIGHT start on a team. If I had to guess which team, it would start with an R and end with “oyals.” ;) So, are you delusional if other people will get on board with you? Or is this mass-hysteria?

    All told though, I feel for Chen. The guy has clearly been working hard for years to keep himself in the league, with mixed results. At least he’s probably bought one more year (or partial year) of playing time.

    Comment by B N — November 5, 2010 @ 11:31 pm

  63. TBR – you forgot the most important thing…. there will no doubt be a “mystery team” involved though Boras obviously will not be able to publicly “comment” on it (or acknowledge that there really is none and this is his transparent way of drumming up business)

    Comment by Hank — November 6, 2010 @ 12:34 am

  64. I cannot believe I just saw Sharrock’s name mentioned not 50 words after Frenchy’s. And I mean that in a good way.

    Comment by Justin Bailey — November 6, 2010 @ 12:37 am

  65. In fairness, in the worst year of Jeter’s career he still finished 3rd among AL SS’s in WAR (granted this is a pretty thin position in the AL these days). His BABIP was ~50pts below his career average, which given that the fact his GB rate spiked up, makes the BABIP drop even more remarkable

    Even with all this his value was ~10mil. I think his offense will bounce back a bit unless he is truly at a brand new BABIP baseline and will offset his defense degradation in the short term (next 2 years). Barring injury, I could see him putting up 6-7 WAR over the next 2 seasons (25-30mil), before the inevitable 0.5WAR/yr (or more) decline.

    The real issue will be contract length, not the dollars. I’d think the Yankees would be best off doing 3 years at a “high” salary (overpay him a bit, stick in a 3000hit bonus, etc) and then have multiple mutual option years going forward after that at a lower base salary

    Comment by Hank — November 6, 2010 @ 12:48 am

  66. Francoeur wins, IMO. But really, I’m just posting now to high-five you for the Peter Kowald reference.

    Comment by Magick Sam — November 6, 2010 @ 2:04 am

  67. Chen will be in the majors for another 7 years. Frenchy will be here in Tokyo soon.

    “Ask The Ages” is an all-time classic!

    Comment by Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO — November 6, 2010 @ 3:14 am

  68. Um… no.

    As a Yankee fan, of course I value winning above all things… well, almost all things. To an extent, I value history over winning.

    If you were to tell me that I could guarantee that the Yankees would win the next five World Series, but in return, monument park had to be bulldozed; every picture in Yankee Stadium or anywhere in Yankee merchandise or marketing could no longer mention the great teams of the past; old timers’ day was cancelled; and I’d never see Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, Don Larsen, Bernie Williams, Paul O’Neill, or Reggie Jackson at the stadium again… I wouldn’t take that deal. Yogi Berra wouldn’t set foot in Yankee Stadium for two decades; I’d have given up two championships for that not to have happened.

    Being about tradition and history is what being a Yankee fan is all about. The fact that the Yankees have more money than God is largely a result of Derek Jeter. He’s the reason you see pink Yankee hats for sale at Modell’s, and he’s a big part of the reason that the YES Network is so profitable.

    DiMaggio and Mantle retired on their own terms. Babe Ruth left of his own accord because he wanted to coach / manage, and knew that Joe McCarthy wasn’t going anywhere (he wasn’t particularly thrilled about it, but it was amicable). If Derek Jeter wants to keep playing for the Yankees, but the Yankees refuse to pay him the money he’s looking for, it will be an absolute disgrace to the organization.

    I don’t spend millions of dollars a year on the Yankees. But I certainly spend thousands. And they won’t be getting any of that money next season if Jeter is playing in another uniform.

    Comment by JimNYC — November 6, 2010 @ 4:49 am

  69. Bruce Chen – he may literally be a poor man’s Jamie Moyer whose peak didn’t happen until his mid 30s.

    Jeff Francoeur – the Cory Snyder of his generation; likely a fourth outfielder / semi regular who may not hit enough to get 500 at-bats again.

    Comment by Larry — November 6, 2010 @ 7:00 am

  70. Mets are completely different then the Yankees. As was their situation with Piazza. Piazza was not a drafted met from day one, that loved the mets growing up. There is no story like Jeter’s, therefore his must be treated differently.
    Many Yankees fans, myself included, would quit being yankees fans if Jeter was not resigned. But its a non-issue because he will be. I would rather have him be vastly overpaid, then not resigned. Because the Yankees can afford to overpay him! Many people are taking this as an either/or Lee or Jeter question, but the real answer is, most likely, both.
    Jeter has earned ‘tenure’. He deserves a contract as long he wants one, because we yankees fans put faith in him that he will step down when he knows he cant go any further.
    And I think everyone is severely undercutting Jeter’s 2009 season. He killed it all year in 2009, and his defense was even rated well. Knowing his undisputedly great work ethic, I would be surprised to see his 2011 as bad as this past year’s production. Maybe not back to MVP numbers, but I think he can bounce back to a .280/.344/.400 line with a UZR around -2 to -5. Which for a shortstop in his late thirties is pretty decent.
    Another point overlooked is, if not Jeter, who? There are no other alternatives that I could see the Yankees getting this offseason. No clear cut upgrades…

    Comment by Anon. — November 6, 2010 @ 10:10 am

  71. @Thisguy — first you say all yankee fans want Jeter back at any cost, then you say, of course there are some yankee fans that don’t wnat Jeter back at any cost. You can’t have it both ways.
    If Jeter signs with another team neither his legacy, not the legacy of the Yankees, will be tarnished. I think you are being simple minded in thinking about his non quantifiable value that can only be unlocked if he stays with the Yankees. And you clearly have the wrong website if you think his intangibles make him more valueable than Cliff Lee.

    Comment by MadDog — November 6, 2010 @ 10:24 am

  72. Still funny to me, even if it was off season.

    Comment by Rolo — November 6, 2010 @ 10:27 am

  73. Francoeur will find a team that will sign him solely for his cannon in RF, and yearly stretch that makes him appear that he’s made progress as a productive hitter. He’s also still just 26 years old, and would be cheap. He just needs a better hitting coach.

    Comment by Kyle — November 6, 2010 @ 11:44 am

  74. Larry:

    Chen has been worth about 7 wins over a minor league scrub while Moyer has contributed something like 45 wins. I wouldn’t call that similar.

    Comment by guest — November 6, 2010 @ 12:11 pm

  75. Yeah, the Yankees are totally paying A-Rod for his marketability. Jackass.

    Comment by Anon — November 6, 2010 @ 12:21 pm

  76. If that’s the case, then you might as well just sign Jeter as an ambassador in the front office instead. The Jeter demands are by far the most deluded I’ve ever seen.

    Comment by baty — November 6, 2010 @ 12:37 pm

  77. @this guy

    You can’t “lose Lee.” You don’t have him yet. If anyone needs further proof of why the rest of the baseball world resents Yankee fans, that’s it right there.

    Comment by pitnick — November 6, 2010 @ 1:01 pm

  78. Jim and Anon, both of you seem to value the player more than the team and I’m sure there’s more fans like that out there. But there are many more fans that would take a playoff appearance w/o Jeter instead of a non-playoff with Jeter. If Jeter wants a reasonable amount – overpaid for his performance, but not absurdly overpaid – and the Yankees let him go, then that will have a huge backlash. But if he holds firm on 5-6 years and won’t budge, I think there will be plenty of backlash towards Jeter. Reasonable Yankee fans will realize that he’s out of line, not the Yankees.

    The Yankees have paid him, what, $200MM over the years? And he’s ‘earned’ a blank check for the future, for however many years he wants to play? That’s insane.

    He’s clearly in a unique position, but the Yankees can only overpay by so much. If he has ridiculous demands that he won’t budge from, then plenty of fans will realize that cutting him loose is the right thing to do.

    Comment by vivalajeter — November 6, 2010 @ 1:25 pm

  79. No one doubts the love Yankees fans have for Jeter. However I highly doubt the Yankees will have a hard time making money without Jeter. That organization is a cash piñata.

    Comment by petejohn — November 6, 2010 @ 1:58 pm

  80. Even though it will probably happen, Eric Chavez thinking any team would waste their time by signing him this offseason is pretty delusional. He’s broken and cannot be fixed. Just retire and manage the A’s or something Eric, they still love you.

    Comment by PL — November 6, 2010 @ 2:20 pm

  81. You peeps r just JEALOUS cuz of my physical abillty!! you nerds jus sit on youre freeking computer alll day and be NERDS!


    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 2:56 pm

  82. lol niiiice bro

    Comment by nyyforever — November 6, 2010 @ 2:58 pm

  83. This is exactly why fans across the nation hate you and your team. Go away

    Comment by Petejohn — November 6, 2010 @ 3:01 pm

  84. ur just jealous cuz cc sabthia is gunna win the cy!! what does he have? like 20 wins!! thats talent! im not gunna vote for sum dude that the freekin computer tells me to do so


    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:05 pm


    Comment by MARINERS!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:07 pm

  86. Where the hell does CC Sabathia come into this equation?

    Comment by Jason — November 6, 2010 @ 3:11 pm

  87. where the hell does cc not come in to this EQUATION! now thats the question, punk

    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:14 pm

  88. This.

    Comment by Santoro — November 6, 2010 @ 3:14 pm

  89. i am uneducated and ignorant failure of the public school system.
    i come on the interwebs to start arguments because i have no friends and am desperate for the attention!

    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:17 pm

  90. and for the stupid mariners guy that jus commented. dont be a copycat loser! u shuld be cryin cuz ur team has zero

    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:18 pm

  91. God why am I so gaaaaaaay????

    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:22 pm

  92. LOL!! ya ill REALLY take offense to that….. NOT

    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:26 pm

  93. Just ignore the doucher. Back to the discussion please.

    Comment by tango — November 6, 2010 @ 3:28 pm

  94. lol, your pwning them, man

    Comment by Nyyforevor — November 6, 2010 @ 3:34 pm

  95. Thats ryght im a winnnnnnurh!!!
    Also I was instrumental in the Yankees losing this postseason to the lowly Rangers.

    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 3:37 pm

  96. I’m going to go with Matt Klaassen for lumping in Derek Jeter with Bruce Chen and Jeff Francoeur.

    Comment by waynetolleson — November 6, 2010 @ 4:06 pm

  97. LOL, wow. You guys are getting trolled haaaard.

    Comment by Anon — November 6, 2010 @ 4:49 pm


    Comment by YANKEES27!!!! — November 6, 2010 @ 5:15 pm

  99. The most deluded people are the Royals fans who think that they should lock up Chen for a few years because it gives them the ability to trade Zack Greinke, because they had the same ERA so they are essentially the same pitcher going forward.

    Comment by UZR is a Joke — November 6, 2010 @ 6:33 pm

  100. Did I mention Chen had more wins? I rest my case.

    Comment by UZR is a Joke — November 6, 2010 @ 6:35 pm

  101. I think Takahashi’s demand is quite absurd as well. He had a good season but no way he’s worth a 3 year deal at the reported 5 million a year.

    Comment by Jimmy — November 6, 2010 @ 7:11 pm

  102. Hi Guys,

    Speaking of deluded, if the people who run this site are going to make visiting it an unnecessarily unpleasant experience by using popup ads that require me to close them in order to read the articles, and continue to po up any time my mouse rolls over a specific area, I’m going to stop coming by. There’s no reason for this. It’s on the order of me stopping by your offices, and jumping up and down shouting “Notice ME!” every time I feel like talking.

    See you around, maybe.

    Jack Str

    Comment by Jack Str — November 6, 2010 @ 7:36 pm

  103. My vote is for Jack Str for not knowing what adblock is.

    Comment by kbertling353 — November 6, 2010 @ 8:00 pm

  104. Seconded. NoScript is your friend, also. If love means never having to say sorry, NoScript means never having to hear “CONGRATULATIONS! YOU’VE WON A FREE IPOD NANO!”

    If Jack Str learns this, he will find not only this site but his entire life more palatable.

    Comment by B N — November 7, 2010 @ 12:13 am

  105. There’s a difference between wanting something and expecting something. I want to make babies with Adriana Lima but I would never make public statements asserting that fact like it’s an inevitable truth… except on Fangraphs.

    Comment by adam — November 7, 2010 @ 12:38 am

  106. Jeter is going to be well paid by the Yankees (15+ AAV), but not for 6 years. He gets 3 years and a team option. That’s it.

    A-Rods deal was a much different situation. First, he was coming off an MVP year. Second, it was the first big decision the young Steinbrenners had to make, and Daddy Steinbrenner was still alive. It was a Steinbrenner who jumped in this time with Jeter and said it could get messy.

    In a bad economy, Jeter may find his popularity taking a big hit if he haggles over more years despite getting what will seem like a generous offer for a 36 yo SS over 3 years. This will reduce his market value to the Yankees.

    Jetter gets millions in endorsements that might go away should he not be wearing a Yankee uniform. His value is other markets is 1/2 what the Yankees can offer him. His numbers in 2010 are not much better than Marco Scutaro who made 5 million last year.

    And Jeter might find that his offensive numbers plummet hitting in a weak lineup and a park that is not very friendly to RHH’ers who like to go to the opposite field. he best stay with the Yankees.

    According to b-ref, Jeter has made 205 million with the yankees, and he probably has made over 50 -100 million in endorsements. He can afford a pay cut that reflects his age, and he certainly is out of bounds asking for a 6 year deal at 36..

    Comment by pft — November 7, 2010 @ 1:32 am

  107. I read this entire feed and decided in the end to HATE Yankee fans even more. Thank you!

    I vote for Francour. It is beyond words to me that he still has an everyday job.

    I think Chen will be a serviceable middle reliever who can spot start adequately here and there for several seasons. I would sign him for 2-3 years if the price was low enough (less than $1 mil) .

    Jeter will get something more than he is worth from the yankees. Many will feel he has earned it, and the yankees have more than enough money.

    I have read matt and he is good enough to rank ahead of Jeff.

    Comment by Nats fan — November 7, 2010 @ 2:07 am

  108. coughadmunchercough

    Comment by Anon — November 7, 2010 @ 9:29 am

  109. Make that a high-ten.

    (Totally gratuitous boast: I played with Kowald once. He was an amazingly generous player, in even agreeing to play with a bunch of local amateurs and more importantly in the way he listened and approached me as an equal even though I wasn’t. Amazing guy, and his passing was a huge tragedy.)

    Comment by matt w — November 7, 2010 @ 11:52 am

  110. Larry Young’s _Unity_,

    More high-fives for that. Have you heard _Lawrence of Newark_, with Pharoah and Blood Ulmer (among many other people, especially percussionists and Dierdre Murray on cello)? Sounds like you’d like it.

    Comment by matt w — November 7, 2010 @ 12:12 pm

  111. Pero tiene un Edge!

    Comment by Bob C — November 7, 2010 @ 2:55 pm

  112. No, I haven’t, I’ve heard about it. I go through “phases” of record buying, and my last one was a few years back. Sounds great, though. When I do think about buying, I fixate on being scared on all the limited edition HatOlogy (re-)issues I never got to that are probably out of print now… I mean, I’m not a “collector,” I’m a listener, but you can’t hear it if you can’t find it anymore.

    Comment by Matt Klaassen — November 7, 2010 @ 5:17 pm

  113. Wow. Awesome. Are you an NYC or Chicago guy (or elsewhere?)? I feel lucky just to have seen him at an NYC Visions festival years ago, I don’t remember which one. He was in a duet (or trio) with either Johannes or Conrad Bauer, or both, it’s been a while, late 90s early 2000s. One of the last I was able to attend before I left NYC. It was one after they stopped doing is at the Orensanz Arts Center.

    Comment by Matt Klaassen — November 7, 2010 @ 6:17 pm

  114. I can’t believe Sonny Sharrock’s name was mentioned four times on one Fangraph’s page.

    Comment by Delino's Ghost — November 7, 2010 @ 6:30 pm

  115. I feel you there, though I think I have to stop denying that I’m a collector by now. Hatology seems to put a lot of stuff back in print these days (looking at their catalog it seems like there’s a bunch of things I have in older editions) but you never know when it’ll be available, which is a good marketing strategy I guess.

    Anyway, Lawrence of Newark may not quite sound like what you imagine — Ulmer is mostly playing background guitar, Sanders isn’t on every track, it’s actually one Dierdre Johnson rather than Dierdre Murray — but it’s still some pretty amazing Larry Young, something like a midway point between the more straight-ahead Unity kind of stuff and the Lifetime/Love Cry Want walls of noise, with lots of percussion. The CD looks pretty pricey but the MP3 download is v. reasonable, since the album is only five tracks.

    Comment by matt w — November 7, 2010 @ 7:24 pm

  116. I’m from Pittsburgh, was playing with a local group of improvisors at the time, but haven’t really played much since I left town. If you ever get the chance to see the “Off the Road” movie documenting that Kowald tour, the guy who is bowing the film reel was part of our group, as is a cornetist later on in the movie. And yes, I was very lucky to get that opportunity, and to see him as well. His solo set was amazing. A friend of mine who hadn’t had any experience with that kind of music was blown away by the solo, and he hadn’t been expecting to be.

    Comment by matt w — November 7, 2010 @ 7:29 pm

  117. Oh my goodness… you jammed with Peter Kowald and Michael Thompson was on your dissertation committee? I hate you.

    Comment by Matt Klaassen — November 7, 2010 @ 9:01 pm

  118. I find the Yankee fans who want to keep Jeter “no matter what” very interesting. It’s almost like winning so much has made the act of winning routine. Therefore, the idea of honoring an aging veteran, being that it’s different, becomes somehow more interesting. That’s the only way I see wanting to keep an unproductive player.

    Comment by Bobby G. — November 8, 2010 @ 1:46 am

  119. Tough call but I had to vote for Chen. Jeter and Francoeur at least have reputations, deserved or not, and that counts for something when setting prices (not setting intrinsic values, but setting prices). Bruce Chen is still Bruce Chen.

    Comment by Random Guy — November 8, 2010 @ 10:18 am

  120. I’m going with Bruce Chen. Francoeur is pretty ballsy for asking for a starting job, but Chen actually wants a multi-year commitment from some team. That’s straight up Kevin Spacey in “Seven” crazy.

    Comment by BillyBeaneismyHero — November 8, 2010 @ 10:30 am

  121. On Jeter: I know he wants 4,000 hits, but he was BAAAD this year (GG was a gift, limited power is all but gone, WAR was 2.5 — the lowest of his 15-year career). It’s time to hang ‘em up….but I’m a realist. Here’s my idea: Have The Weakling sign a two-year, $35 million deal and be a player/coach for $10 million per after 2012. You know what…it doesn’t matter. World’s ending then anyway. Never mind. Euthanize him.

    Comment by Antonio — November 10, 2010 @ 9:13 am

  122. Granted, this hit the news after the article was written, but Bud Selig is now the most deluded person of the baseball off-season if he really thinks that Abner Doubleday invented baseball.

    Comment by Detroit Michael — November 11, 2010 @ 4:07 pm

  123. What a awesome piece of writing, nice you wrote it. Cheers.

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    Comment by Everett Freyman — November 1, 2011 @ 3:34 pm

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