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  1. I wonder who will have the bigger contract in 2 years. Hamels is gonna get $PAID$

    Comment by Nik — June 9, 2011 @ 4:27 pm

  2. As a Phillies fan, Hamels has been better than Lee imo. he has been just as good as Doc.

    Comment by letitrain10 — June 9, 2011 @ 4:31 pm

  3. Consider the hair split

    Comment by filihok — June 9, 2011 @ 4:33 pm

  4. Hamels has been a little more consistent this season, but when Lee is on he has been absolutely filthy. Take a look at the game logs where Lee has 10+ strike outs – if you watch the highlights from those games you actually start to feel bad for the hitters.

    Comment by Bay Slugga — June 9, 2011 @ 4:39 pm

  5. Oh, I almost forgot…

    ZOMG Dave Cameron hatez the Philliez.

    Comment by Bay Slugga — June 9, 2011 @ 4:43 pm

  6. As to which is better, hard to say, but Lee is a heck of a lot more fun to watch. I’ve never seen a pitcher who so enjoys beating the hitter, it’s all over his face and body language. When he’s on, he radiates a fierce joy at his craft. I’d rather watch Lee than any other pitcher in the game today, including Halladay.

    Comment by Dan in Philly — June 9, 2011 @ 4:57 pm

  7. Lee’s significantly increased walk rate really comes down to just one game in St. Louis (5/16) where he got squeezed and didn’t adjust (6 BB).

    Comment by Phils Goodman — June 9, 2011 @ 4:59 pm

  8. Really, because ever since Cole Hamels was called up in 06 he has been my favorite pitcher to watch. I also like watching Lee pitch, I love how he freezes a hitter with a FB straight down the middle for a strike three catching them at a total surprise.

    Comment by letitrain10 — June 9, 2011 @ 5:14 pm

  9. What’s the ticket on Jonathan Sanchez with the Giants?

    Comment by channelclemente — June 9, 2011 @ 5:28 pm

  10. Not even close to being in the conversation?

    Comment by DavidCEisen — June 9, 2011 @ 5:32 pm

  11. Much too high walk rate to be in the conversation, unfortunately.

    Comment by Ree — June 9, 2011 @ 5:43 pm

  12. Kershaw at this best will blow Hamels and Lee away. He will finish with a lower xFIP than both of these guys by the end of the year.

    Comment by Jon Bongiovi — June 9, 2011 @ 5:44 pm

  13. really? I dont see it going down that way.

    Comment by letitrain10 — June 9, 2011 @ 5:54 pm

  14. Hamels also seems to be one of the better hitters on the Phillies as well. :)

    Comment by Neuter Your Dogma — June 9, 2011 @ 5:55 pm

  15. Have you watched the playoffs the last two years? There’s not a pitcher in the game who can blow away Lee at his best.

    Comment by Ben — June 9, 2011 @ 5:56 pm

  16. Good point.

    And for what it’s worth, it’s entirely fair to assume that he’s not going to ever repeat his K/BB ratio he had last season. Those statistics he put up were close to immortal. Why he did not get more attention for setting the single-season AL K/BB ratio record, I do not know. He deserved better than 7th in the Cy Young voting solely for that stat.

    Comment by KB — June 9, 2011 @ 6:07 pm

  17. Lee at his best, you need rare event, black swan techniques to evaluate those.

    Comment by channelclemente — June 9, 2011 @ 6:30 pm

  18. I know he’s not the best at this point, but MadBum has a FIP (not xFIP) of 2.85 or so… despite his 2-7 record, he’s pitching really well for a guy that is so young.

    Comment by Dave — June 9, 2011 @ 6:53 pm

  19. I assume he still doesn’t qualify, but should soon, Zach Greinke. xFIP is 2.07!!!!

    Comment by Dustin — June 9, 2011 @ 7:05 pm

  20. Oh, I forgot to add, that would be .31 points lower than anyone else in the majors. When the Brewers made the deal it looked like a steal to me and now it is looking even better. I don’t care if his ERA is 4.83. Now if the Brewers would only dump Betancourt.

    On a separate note, looking at the numbers for Greinke, everyone is giving so much publicity to how lights out Venters has been(and he has), but has anyone noticed that Kimbrel actually has a better xFIP!

    Comment by Dustin — June 9, 2011 @ 7:10 pm

  21. I thought the title actually sounded like “Which nl SOUTHPAW is Greatest?”…maybe it’s because I’m Italian and I don’t know English as well as you do, but now I really think Greinke is pitching with the wrong hand. Looking at what he’s accomplished, It’s quite scary to think he’s actually a lefty!

    Comment by Federico — June 9, 2011 @ 7:39 pm

  22. Ummm since Greinke is righthanded its gonna be tough for him to qualify as the best southpaw in the NL. I think he’ll fall just short. Just a hunch.

    Comment by jpg — June 9, 2011 @ 7:53 pm

  23. I’ve given up on sanchez becoming an elite pitcher. he’s just too wild.

    but have you seen how much his hitting is improved this season? SSS, but he is really mashing (for a pitcher) – 250 .280 .417 (304 wOBA)

    Comment by brendan — June 9, 2011 @ 8:05 pm

  24. batter: why are you smiling?
    ZG: because I know something you don’t know.
    batter: and what is that?
    ZG: I am not right-handed
    (switches glove-hand, fires 105MPH FB)

    Comment by brendan — June 9, 2011 @ 8:09 pm

  25. Needs more Venters.

    Comment by Luke — June 9, 2011 @ 8:21 pm

  26. Man, if Zack Greinke could do that left-handed, too, he’d easily be the best all-around pitcher in baseball!

    Didn’t you kind of already establish earlier in the article who the obvious choice is? If you have two identical pitchers and one is 27 while the other is 32, I’ll take the 27-year-old every time. (I say that not having seen any Philly games this year, mind you.)

    Comment by dougiejays — June 9, 2011 @ 8:44 pm

  27. if we can eliminate garcia for past injury, can we eliminate lee for his longer past i.e. being 32? i mean if i have two pitchers that are exactly as good as each other and one is 5 years younger…. not hard to split that hair.

    Comment by phoenix2042 — June 9, 2011 @ 8:59 pm

  28. thats better than hanely ramirez.

    Comment by phoenix2042 — June 9, 2011 @ 9:02 pm

  29. @ Brendan

    This of course is followed by the batter’s surprising revelation, “I’m not right-handed either!”

    And to think, this actually happened with Pat Venditte. What a game.

    Comment by KB — June 9, 2011 @ 9:49 pm

  30. You realize that Halladay, Hernandez and Lincecum are in this article and they are rightys? The whole first paragraph is about the best pitchers in baseball including rightys and leftys. The the second paragraph mentions Halladay and Lincecum again in regards to their FIP. Doesn’t say anything about leftys, so I think Greinke has the best xFIP so far and has won a Cy Young recently and deserves a mention.

    “…they are each one of the six pitchers in the NL with an xFIP below 3.00.”

    Obviously, you are an idiot if you can’t see that there is more to the article than the title, or maybe you didn’t read it.

    Comment by Dustin — June 9, 2011 @ 9:50 pm

  31. Anybody know why Lee hasn’t been able to pitch to his FIP the past year or so? ERA around 4 with Texas, ERA of 3.62 this year. I mean yea the walk rate, Ks, everything is nice, but geez. I don’t care if your FIP is 0.00, if your era is 4 for 100 innings one year, and 3.62 for 100 innings the next year, you kinda start questioning things.

    I don’t know who I’d go with honestly. Not Lee, he’s too old and I think he’s overrated. Jaime is really good, but he hasn’t proven himself to me yet. If it’s September and he’s still putting up these numbers, then I’ll add him. Hamels was really good last year and has been really good this year too. He’s at the peak of his career though (in all likelihood). Kershaw has been just as good as Hamels the last few years and is only 23. If I have to pick any of them I want on my team it’d be Kershaw. That’s more long term though, in game 7 of the world Series, probably Hamels.

    Comment by Antonio bananas — June 9, 2011 @ 10:37 pm

  32. Hamels is probably the best right now, he’s been pretty amazing. That said, Lee and Kershaw are pretty close in my mind, and going long term, I don’t know how comfortable I would be giving a FB Change guy with a slower curve as the third pitch big money over many years.

    Comment by Colin — June 9, 2011 @ 10:56 pm

  33. Jonny Venters.

    Comment by Louis — June 9, 2011 @ 11:53 pm

  34. Sean Marshall.

    Comment by Matthew — June 9, 2011 @ 11:57 pm

  35. He’s been better so far this season, But, career-wise, Cliff has more medals.

    Comment by dino — June 10, 2011 @ 12:07 am

  36. I hope his arm does not fall off from overuse by the Braves, but Venters is throwing the nastiest stuff I have ever seen from a lefty on a nightly basis. The misses he generates are amazing, from bad hitters all the way to all-stars. The Marlin broadcasters mentioned tonight how Wes Helms had told them Venters was the toughest lefty he had ever seen in his career, a lefty version of Mariano Riveira.

    Comment by Phantom Stranger — June 10, 2011 @ 1:15 am

  37. Which pitcher has performed better in the playoffs. I do remember Lee last year falling apart?

    Comment by chad — June 10, 2011 @ 1:17 am

  38. I think Lee is overrated as hell. A 4 ERA for half a season last year and 3.6+ for 1/3 of a year this year. The way he pitches, low walks, low HR, high K and K/BB makes his FIP look great, but I don’t give a shit about your FIP if your ERA is consistently ‘good’ like he’s been. Philly is going to regret their huge contract to him.

    Comment by Antonio bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 1:22 am

  39. Lets cherry pick periods to judge him by.

    2008 – 2.54 ERA
    2009 – 3.22 ERA
    2010 – 3.18 ERA

    ZOMG HIS ERA WITH TEXAS, 2 MONTHS IN PHILLY!!!

    This year he’s gotten next to no run support and his BABIP is insanely high. Wait til the end of the year, then judge what he’s done.

    Comment by B — June 10, 2011 @ 1:39 am

  40. The cool thing about Hamels is the addition of his cutter, has turned him from a homer prone fly ball pticher to a guy who keeps the ball in the yard and on the ground.

    He’s turning into the left handed version of Doc. If he could add a true 2 seem fastball, watch out ;)

    Comment by B — June 10, 2011 @ 1:43 am

  41. It’s not cherry picking. If I cherry picked then they wouldn’t be continuous. I picked about the last year. he’s 32, which means his best days are behind him. Looking at nearly the last year of a 32 year old pitcher in which his ERA has been high is pretty reasonable. I mean it’s not like I’m looking at 100 innings when he was playing hurt in which his ERA was higher and saying ‘HA, I told you’ like people on here do with Jair Jurrjens.

    Comment by Antonio bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 1:51 am

  42. Last I checked, Lee was sent to the minors in 2007 in his age 28 season. I find it to be a difficult arguement to claim he is great when he was optioned during his prime years, even if he has been excellent since then.

    A couple ecellent years don’t make an outstanding career, or great pitcher. Lee’s HR/FB rate dropped drastically when he came back up. I’d take Kershaw’s raw stuff or even Hamels’ changeup over Lee.

    Comment by TheGrandslamwich — June 10, 2011 @ 1:56 am

  43. Let’s look at Lee like this
    2008 (29) – 2.54, 168 ERA+
    2009 (30) – Cleveland 3.14, 135 ERA+ (152 innings)
    Philly 3.39, 124 ERA+ (80 innings)
    2010 (31) – Seattle 2.34, 170 ERA+ (103 innings)
    Texas 3.98, 112 ERA+ (108 innings)
    2011 (32) – Philly 3.62, 106 ERA+ (87 innings)

    So basically beyond the first half of 2010, he’s been declining the last 4 years. He’s past his prime and he’s declining. I didn’t cherry pick, I actually magnified every year. Make a graph of Cliff Lee since 2009, or even his whole career, he’s trending down.

    Now maybe he does bounce back and post like a 2.50 ERA for the rest of 2011. My point still stands. How can people on here look at cliff Lee, who for nearly 200 innings now has been “good” look at his FIP and call him one of the clear cut “best” and then look at Jair Jurrens, who’s ERA has been getting lower and lower except for when he was hurt and is only 25 and say he’s merely a “#3 starter based on FIP”?

    Comment by Antonio bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 2:06 am

  44. BUT HIS FIP SAYS HE SHOULD BE GOOD!!!!!

    Comment by Antonio bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 2:08 am

  45. and since you guy like using FIP as an indicator let’s look at his FIP.

    in 2008 his ridiculously low ERA was lower than his FIP.
    2009: 3.22 ERA 3.11 FIP
    2010: 3.18 ERA 2.58 FIP
    2011: 3.62 ERA 2.59 FIP

    So he’s had over 500 innings the past 3 years with a FIP lower than his ERA. Maybe that’s just how he is. Maybe he’s not this super elite amazing pitcher he’s cracked out to be. Maybe Cliff Lee is just “good”. Which isn’t bad, well it is if you’re paying him 20M dollars and he’s declining.

    Comment by Antonio bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 2:13 am

  46. I’m not too sure why his ERA was high in Texas last year, maybe it can be due to the small sample size of a half a season. As far as this year is concerned, his BABIP is .345, which is at least partially due to some bad defense that the Phillies played behind him in a couple of early season games. If you’ll notice, Dave used xFIP and not ERA in this article, to remove some of that noise.

    Comment by hk — June 10, 2011 @ 7:46 am

  47. What do you get out of this site?

    Comment by Richard — June 10, 2011 @ 8:54 am

  48. “He’s also the one with a significant arm surgery in his past”

    If I were a GM, I think I’d be inclined to see a successful Tommy John recovery as a plus, not a minus. Shoulder problems, run for the hills.

    Comment by astrostl — June 10, 2011 @ 9:53 am

  49. Johnny Venters is the best pitcher (much less southpaw) in the game today. His WAR is better than most good starters.. imagine if he was a SP?

    Comment by Rob — June 10, 2011 @ 10:38 am

  50. Totally agree. Lee is not a $20MM/year type pitcher. This will be another terrible contract handed out by the genius known as Ruben Amaro Jr., and this one they won’t be able to overcome. They needed Jayson Werth’s plate discipline a lot more than another good LHP on their staff. The Phillie offense is a bottom 5 NL offense.

    Comment by Jon Bongiovi — June 10, 2011 @ 10:48 am

  51. He’s not even the best lefty on that staff.

    Comment by Matt — June 10, 2011 @ 11:34 am

  52. FYI, there’s another young southpaw in the NL who now has a better career ERA/ERA+ (3.03/128) than any other lefty named in this article and who’s only 21. Which to point out how unique that is, I’ve spent some time hunting on baseball-reference and the last lefties I could find who had as many innings and a better ERA+ through their age 21 seasons were Fernando Valenzuela and Vida Blue before him.

    So it’s pretty simple to me. Hamels is the best right now but the guy I want for the future is Bumgarner.

    Comment by ElJimador — June 10, 2011 @ 11:40 am

  53. You’re the biggest Braves homer. It’s totally hilarious.

    “If you ignore his good months Lee has been declining for years!”. “I don’t trust defense and everyone else is on roids but Chipper is totally an angel trust me and he’s way better than that Schmidt guy”.

    Great AM radio analysis there, buddy.

    Comment by don — June 10, 2011 @ 12:00 pm

  54. Antonio,

    Whether your right it not, it does seem strange that you would choose rip FIP on site devoted to Sabermetrics.

    Comment by KB — June 10, 2011 @ 12:53 pm

  55. You really are awful.

    Comment by B — June 10, 2011 @ 1:02 pm

  56. If he were a starting pitcher he more than likely wouldn’t achieve the same success. His stuff plays up out of the pen because of the added velocity.

    Comment by B — June 10, 2011 @ 1:09 pm

  57. If he was a SP, he’d struggle to put up the same numbers.

    Comment by Sean — June 10, 2011 @ 1:16 pm

  58. Being 32 does NOT guarantee his best days are behind him.

    Comment by Sean — June 10, 2011 @ 1:19 pm

  59. Antonio,

    I don’t understand your point. Lee’s ERA has been very good over the last three years (since 2008). In fact, his 3.08 ERA since 2008 is 6th best in baseball. Further, if you dismiss Adam Wainwright and Johnan Santana –neither of whom have played this season– from the picture, Lee jumps up to 4th overall and #1 among left-handers.

    Granted, Lee is declining, but that would be expected, no? And for what it is worth, it would be completely unfair to say Lee has been “trending down” his “whole career”. In fact, best 4 seasons have come after his first 6 seasons.

    Indeed, Lee is not a “super elite amazing” pitcher. But who said he was?

    Nevertheless, you yourself have admitted he has ” 500 innings the past 3 years” with “low walks, low HR, high K and K/BB” and could “bounce back and post like a 2.50 ERA for the rest of 2011″. With all respect, I’d say you’ve made a descent case for Lee.

    Comment by KB — June 10, 2011 @ 1:33 pm

  60. LOL. Because FIP is so mainstream.

    Comment by Jay Gloab — June 10, 2011 @ 2:45 pm

  61. I don’t know Kershaw’s repertoire enough but I assume your talking about Hamels. Good news is thats not the case. He is a fastball, cutter, change guy with a curve as his 4th pitch.

    Comment by Chewy59 — June 10, 2011 @ 2:47 pm

  62. Lee is working on his fourth consecutive excellent year. I’ll happily concede he hasn’t had an excellent career, but we’re not talking about his HoF resume, just who is the best NL lefty *at present.* The fact that Lee struggled four years ago has no bearing whatsoever on that question.

    Comment by Jay Gloab — June 10, 2011 @ 2:48 pm

  63. Wow are you really that dense? The first paragraph basically states: “Hey we talk about right handed pitchers a lot, but lets look at left handed pitchers.” The next paragraph begins by saying “hey these lefties are as good as those righties, so now I’m going to write an article about who the best left handed pitcher is.” The article is about left handed pitchers with a few right handed pitchers thrown in for context. It is not a discussion about the best right handed pitchers.

    Comment by DavidCEisen — June 10, 2011 @ 3:05 pm

  64. Who said he’s super elite? Everyone, you guys go “he’s tops in FIP” etc, but he’s NOT tops in ERA. His ERA is good. I’m not saying he’s a bad pitcher, all I’m saying is get off the guy’s nuts. His ERA has been above his FIP for almost 3 years, maybe he’s just not that good.

    My point is more that you guys put too much stock in FIP. Like underrated Jurrjens and overrating Lee. I don’t think Lee is the top left hander. He may be a top 10 pitcher in the MLB, but he’s declining. Which means he won’t be for long and for the last few years of his contract, he’ll be greatly overpaid.

    It probably won’t be as bad as the Zito contract but it’s not going to be pretty.

    Comment by Antonio Bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 3:14 pm

  65. When I said he could bounce back and post a 2.50 ERA the rest of the season that doesn’t make a good case for him. That wouldn’t make him elite. His season ERA would still be around 3.00, which is good, but not elite. Elite is like top 5. Lee is very good and declining. He’s been inconsistent the last few years, which is how it starts. Everyone on his is on his nuts because of his FIP and “peripherals” but his performance the past 100 innings hasn’t matched up and there’s been a clear decline.

    In other words, stop saying how great Lee is, don’t put him as the best anything in baseball because he isn’t. He’s an aging “good” pitcher who will have spurts of being really really good.

    I think more than anything it just peeves me that Lee hasn’t pitched to his “peripherals” in 500 innings and Jair Jurrjens has pretty much always pitched better than his. Yet over and over and over and over there are articles saying that Lee is Sandy Koufax and Jair Jurrjens is a “solid #3 starter”. It’s insane that you put so much weight in FIP. It’s downright stupid when for THREE YEARS evidence has shown that Lee doesn’t pitch as well as his FIP thinks he is.

    Comment by Antonio Bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 3:19 pm

  66. I am a Braves homer. However, when Lee doesn’t pitch as well as his FIP says he should be for as long as it’s been, shouldn’t someone point that out?

    I mean, Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg have all the signs pointing that that they should be awesome too, doesn’t mean the peripherals actually translate.

    Still, nobody has made the case for Lee very convincingly. “his fip” “his gb rate” etc, yet he still hasn’t performed to those levels.

    I’m not saying he’s a bad pitcher, just saying he’s not in the upper tier and he’s definately not worth his contract.

    Comment by Antonio Bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 3:23 pm

  67. I didn’t ignore his good months either. Here’s what I said, that for the majority of the past 4 years, he’s declining. He had a good 100 or so innings in Seattle. Which is way more reasonable than the article about Jair’s half season in which he got injured being proof of him not being as good as his ERA says even though besides that he’s been getting better.

    Chipper and Schmidt I said that I don’t think Chipper gets the recognition he deserves because everyone else was on roids. I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to think Chipper wasn’t. If he was on roids, he wouldn’t have been getting hurt so much in his early 30s, he would have gotten bigger and stronger.

    Then I said that Chipper is a more complete offensive force, which he is, there is absolutely no arguing that. Schmidt had defense and home run power, Chipper hit for power, hit for contact, and drew walks. I then said that I’ll take the better offensive 3B. Nothing wrong with that.

    Just because I don’t drink the kool aid of all the stats, especially the ones like FIP, doesn’t mean I don’t have sound arguments. I don’t like putting a ton of stock in any stat. It’s insane the amount of people on here go with FIP even when there is so much evidence that maybe that’s not the best thing to look at for all pitchers when they’re constantly pitching better or worse than their FIP.

    Comment by Antonio Bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 3:28 pm

  68. Oh, I misread you, never mind.

    Comment by Jay Gloab — June 10, 2011 @ 3:56 pm

  69. Antonio,

    I respect the point you are trying to make. Nonetheless, allow me to respectively critique your argument. You have committed a clear cut example of the Straw man Logical Fallacy. This type of flawed thinking can somewhat be stated as follows:

    When one misrepresents his opponent’s position and then proceeds to refute that misrepresentation rather than what his opponent actually claims.

    In this example, you have wrongly represented my position. Twice you called me “you guys”, wrongly assuming that my position is based on FIP. You actually stated “It’s insane that you put so much weight in FIP”. This however is not true. I’ve never presented my position on FIP, therefore making it impossible for you to know how much “weight” I put in it. You misrepresented my position on FIP and then proceeded to refute it.

    Further, you actually committed this fallacy a second time, misrepresenting my position on Lee’s status. You wrongly stated that I considered Lee elite and that he is the best “anything” in baseball. In reality, I stated somewhat the contrary. You then proceeded to refute this position.

    And for what it may be worth, I read about Lee frequently, and I don’t recall a legitimate article that considered Lee as good as Sandy Koufax.

    And with these two logical fallacies in mind, your argument can largely be dismissed.

    With that said, I truly do respect what your trying to say. Basically –and do correct me if I am wrong– that you are trying to say that Lee is not as good as his contract warrants, whereas Jair Jurrjens is, no? I generally agree. I do not, however, have an opinion on Jurrjens, being unequipped to comment on his talent.

    Of course, the value of Lee’s contract does not determine his effectiveness as a pitcher. Maybe it will turn out badly for Philly, and maybe it will not. You’re entitled to your opinion. However, for the sake of argument, I must consider why you care at all. If you are a Braves fan, it should not concern you either way.

    Comment by KB — June 10, 2011 @ 4:36 pm

  70. I rip FIP because the amount of FIP Fapping (exactly what it sounds like) is disgusting right now. Yea it’s a good tool. However, it’s nuts how much weight guys are giving the stat. If a guy doesn’t perform to his FIP, good or bad, for years at a time, it’s time to stop saying he’s good/bad based on his FIP.

    Comment by Antonio Bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 5:07 pm

  71. KB, I will apologize to you directly. Most of my posts are against the high number of people who still think Lee is even possibly the best lefty or an elite pitcher. Just too many posts and too many articles putting him in that tier when his performance shows he isn’t THAT good.

    I care about Lee’s performance and his contract because Philly fans are about as bad as Yankee or Sox fans in their bias. Not only that but as a Braves fan the Phillies success/failure correlates to the Braves success/failure.

    Maybe it’s just bitterness. Maybe I’m just sick of hearing ESPN, Phillies fans, and articles declaring the Phillies “Phour” as some sort of gift from God. They probably won’t even finish with the lowest team era, the odds are against that. I just can’t stand all the love Lee gets when his ERA and actual performance hasn’t shown he’s elite.

    Comment by Antonio Bananas — June 10, 2011 @ 5:12 pm

  72. Thank you.

    Comment by KB — June 10, 2011 @ 5:31 pm

  73. If you think that, you should at least know how to spell his name.

    Comment by Louis — June 10, 2011 @ 6:30 pm

  74. Lee has had two bad games this season. I those two games he gave up a combined 12 runs, in his other 11 games he has given up 23 runs total. In four of those games he has given up 1 or fewer runs.

    Comment by DavidCEisen — June 10, 2011 @ 7:48 pm

  75. Do you think opposing batters are going to continue to sport a .345 BABIP against Lee, even though he has a career .298 BABIP against?

    Comment by DavidCEisen — June 10, 2011 @ 7:50 pm

  76. @Dustin
    Ouch. -16 and counting!
    I read the whole post, so I knew why those rightIEs were mentioned in that paragraph. In your opinion, which are the criteria to “qualify” for the discussion of the best pitcher in baseball that Greinke is still missing?
    Maybe you should consider reading even the non-bold part of the text next time before calling me an idiot. It’s not my fault if 16 readers thought your comment was so hilarious.

    @Brendan
    I was actually thinking about Princess Bride while writing my comment (even if in Italy it hadn’t a lot of success, with a stupid title which in English would sound like “The Fantasting/Amazing Story”); the duel scene on the cliffs is EPIC!

    Comment by Federico — June 10, 2011 @ 8:31 pm

  77. You didn’t, perchance, watch game 6 of the world series, did you?

    Comment by Travis — June 11, 2011 @ 5:34 pm

  78. Ooops, I meant game 5

    Comment by Travis — June 11, 2011 @ 5:35 pm

  79. “I mean, Bryce Harper and Stephen Strasburg have all the signs pointing that that they should be awesome too, doesn’t mean the peripherals actually translate.”

    That’s an odd analogy – Harper HAS been awesome in all the professional baseball he’s played so far (tiny sample notwithstanding), as has Stras. It’s not that they haven’t met expectations – no one expected Harper to be battling for an MVP award already, or even playing in the majors regularly. Their time on the field has met or exceeded expectations in both cases, I would argue.

    I think I understand your point, your examples were just kinda putrid.

    Comment by Jason B — June 13, 2011 @ 1:18 am

  80. “Johnny Venters is the best pitcher (much less southpaw) in the game today”

    Let’s not say things we don’t mean to try and make a point that we can all agree on (that Venters is really good).

    Comment by Jason B — June 13, 2011 @ 1:19 am

  81. Lee’s current ERA: 3.12

    So much for that.

    Comment by DavidCEisen — June 17, 2011 @ 7:05 am

  82. Yes I was talking about Hamels. Heavily change reliant pitchers are liable to fall off fairly rapidly which would be my hesitation giving him a long term deal worth big bucks. Kershaw to me is the most likeable going forward but no question Hamels is having the best season this year.

    Comment by Colin — June 21, 2011 @ 11:19 am

  83. Kershaw had a masterful complete game shutout 11 k 1 walk 2 hit effort against the Tigers last night, putting him at 3.1 WAR for the year also leading the league in strikeouts and K/9 inning as well. His triple slash line is 3.01/2.52/2.83. All of that is even after starting awesome 3 and 4 starts ago and then imploding in the 6th and 7th inning both times.

    At the time of this article Kershaw had already imploded a couple times in a row, but 1 good and 1 tremendous start after fixing the 2 bad starts before those he’s easily in contention with Cole Hamels for best NL southpaw. Also, if you can, take a look at the 9th inning against the tigers…he struck out the side and made them look foolish.

    Comment by Ivdown — June 21, 2011 @ 4:45 pm

  84. ZG: My name is Donald Zackary Greinke and you killed my father!

    Comment by My echo and bunnymen — June 21, 2011 @ 9:04 pm

  85. Best years behind him at 32?

    Comment by Roy Halladay — June 21, 2011 @ 9:08 pm

  86. I hate to be mean, but seriously Antonio Bananas, can’t you just, you know, piss off?

    Comment by My echo and bunnymen — June 21, 2011 @ 9:11 pm

  87. Medals as in one cy-young? Hamels is a world series MVP. ask Lee which “medal” he’d rather have

    Comment by John — July 21, 2011 @ 11:15 am

  88. That’s nice, but he’s no Doug Fister.

    Comment by joser — July 21, 2011 @ 12:14 pm

  89. If I wanted to build a franchise for the next few years, I’d want Kershaw. If I wanted a guy on the mound for a must-win game this year, I’d rather have Hamels or Lee.

    Comment by joser — July 21, 2011 @ 12:16 pm

  90. Oh faint praise, how thee damns.

    I imagine he’d play a better LF than Raul Ibanez, too, if they’d let him.

    Comment by joser — July 21, 2011 @ 12:18 pm

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