FanGraphs Baseball


RSS feed for comments on this post.

  1. Compare the “millstone” of a contract Rodriquez has to the “great” deal the Angels got for Weaver and then look at their actual performance.

    Comment by Rob — August 24, 2011 @ 10:51 am


    My twitter and RSS has been full of pieces on how Wandy is not a good pitcher and would be given away at first chance. Maybe it’s just that people don’t appreciate good, solid players on non-contenders. I’ve always thought that’s exactly what Wandy is, a good, solid, #2-3 type on a contender.

    Comment by theonemephisto — August 24, 2011 @ 10:53 am

  3. Isn’t the option guaranteed in case of a trade?

    Comment by Brandon Warne — August 24, 2011 @ 11:03 am

  4. I don’t think the article it trying to say he’s a bargain, but that he’s not some albatross contract.

    If someone was willing to trade for vernon wells, I should hope teams would have interest in Wandy at least.

    Comment by balagast — August 24, 2011 @ 11:04 am

  5. Yep:

    Comment by Brandon Warne — August 24, 2011 @ 11:04 am

  6. It becomes a player option. I talk about this in the post.

    Comment by Dave Cameron — August 24, 2011 @ 11:08 am

  7. Ah yes. Very good.

    Comment by Brandon Warne — August 24, 2011 @ 11:11 am

  8. 32 years old next year

    FBv – past 4 years

    SwStr – past 4 years

    K% – past 4 years

    I think the truth is somewhere between your generous representation and Heyman’s admittedly hyperbolic one. His FA value is probably 20-24/3.

    Comment by Telo — August 24, 2011 @ 11:11 am

  9. I agree completely. I always thought he was a pretty good pitcher, and when I read all of these articles about how nobody would claim him for fear of taking on his contract, I had to go to his player page to see if he was substantially worse than I thought, or to see if he fell off of a cliff this year. Sure enough, his numbers have been solid.

    I think he’s especially helpful for a fringe team that can’t attract free agents. A team like the royals, in a $hit division with a number of great prospects, can certainly use him. The only way a good free agent pitcher will sign with KC is if they vastly overpay – Rodriguez seems like a great choice for them, at a palatable rate.

    This all changes if Houston is asking for a substantial package in return for him, but if it’s just a matter of picking up his contract then a lot of teams should be willing.

    Comment by vivalajeter — August 24, 2011 @ 11:15 am

  10. So, there’s been no appreciable change in velocity and his K% has been stable for three years with just a very small drop this year (coinciding with a drop in his walk rate from last year as well). Congratulations, you’ve shown that Wandy Rodriguez is pretty consistent.

    3/20 to 3/24 would require you to believe that the market would value Rodriguez less than Lilly, Wolf, or de la Rosa. Good luck showing how any of those three are superior to Rodriguez in any way.

    Comment by Dave Cameron — August 24, 2011 @ 11:17 am

  11. Wandy Rodriguez pitches in the NL Central for a bad team. It’s just bias. Sportswriters have always looked more favorably on players who

    a) Are playing for a contender
    b) Are playing for teams in large markets, preferably on the east coast, and west if that’s not possible

    Add in the fact that he’s a smaller guy who doesn’t throw all that hard and was never hyped as a younger player, and you have a recipe for sports journalists to repeatedly make silly statements on Twitter.

    Comment by OremLK — August 24, 2011 @ 11:21 am

  12. You’re ignoring Telo’s opening line. Wandy’s already 32. As well as being just a bit obnoxious about it, for no reason I can see. You, not Wandy.

    Comment by Richie — August 24, 2011 @ 11:24 am

  13. There’s a trade-off between talent/production and off the field issues. If allegations surface regarding Wandy’s participation in underground illegal poker games (his cousin is meeting with MLB on Friday) then those teams that passed on the waiver claim will look a lot wiser.

    Comment by Ousy — August 24, 2011 @ 11:26 am

  14. Damn you, Dave Cameron… now you’ve gotten me all excited that the Red Sox might be able to pick him up. Above average pitcher at 30% less than they’re paying Lackey and no prospects given in exchange? Yes please!

    Comment by mcbrown — August 24, 2011 @ 11:26 am

  15. Ted Lilly was 34 last winter when he got 3/33. Wolf was 33 when he got 3/30 the year before. Sorry, not buying age as a valid reason.

    Comment by Dave Cameron — August 24, 2011 @ 11:27 am

  16. Well played, sir.

    Comment by mcbrown — August 24, 2011 @ 11:28 am

  17. I’m not sure why you wouldn’t pick on Heyman. The guy is good at getting scoops about trades and free agents, but he has no respect for saberists and treats advanced statistics like they’re the plague. He can be quite arrogant and condescending, yet implies the same of those who adhere to sabermetrics. The guy is a lousy sports journalist who deserves to be picked on.

    Comment by Josh — August 24, 2011 @ 11:36 am

  18. For what it’s worth, I have a hard time seeing him moving this month (unless Houston wants to save immediate cash). If I were the Rockies, I would be lowballing Houston to see if they will just dump him without a quality return. It seems to make more sense for Houston to wait and try to work a trade in the winter when there are more potential bidders to drive up the return.

    Comment by James — August 24, 2011 @ 11:42 am

  19. If the Rockies are able to get Wandy in a waiver wire deal, I’ll have to back off O’Dowd a bit. And if they include Charlie Blackmon in the deal, Carson will have to be an Astros fan.

    Comment by Logan Burdine — August 24, 2011 @ 11:43 am

  20. Crap, there goes my question for the next Dave Cameron chat.

    Comment by Mark — August 24, 2011 @ 11:45 am

  21. Hey its the next market inefficiency!
    Very good left handed starting pitchers who play for the Houston Astros!

    Answer me this: how many of Wandy Rodriguez’s starts in his career do you think guys like Jon Heyman have actually sat down and watched. Yeah, he’s 32. Considering his career trajectory/how he pitches, I have little reason to think that’s a red flag for the future.

    Anyone who doubts Rodriguez’s talent and his ability to pitch as a #2 has 1. never looked at his stats in depth. 2. has never watched him pitch. This isn’t even a saber/ non saber thing. It is an ignorant/informed thing.

    Comment by JP — August 24, 2011 @ 11:46 am

  22. Hey, chillax. Telo is playing nice.

    Wandy is a one pitch guy as it is. If he is showing a decline in whiffs while still walking too many guys, that’s going to turn off potential buyers. People get bad contracts all the time after one or two great years, ala Wolf and Lilly. And as much as we would like it to be otherwise, market value is not driven solely by FIP and xFIP and rigorous statistical analysis.

    I would take Wandy in a hearbeat over Lilly and Wolf, but the market might say differently about an aging one pitch wonder, who is showing declines in the one thing he brings to the table, who plays on a shitty, tiny market team, with a doofus sounding name, who has a crappy W/L record.

    Everything is not about stats when it comes to “the market”.

    Comment by Telo — August 24, 2011 @ 12:05 pm

  23. Have we forgotten how Oswalt was doing in Houston before being shipped out?

    Comment by james wilson — August 24, 2011 @ 12:06 pm

  24. And now that we’re on the subject, here’s constructive criticism for the next 100 “Here’s something I know that you don’t know” or “Player X is criminally underrated” or whatever iteration of your favorite theme of article.

    The first thing they teach you in speech and debate 101 is: The most effective way to make you case is to present the opposite view and dismantle it – or some variation of that. I think you missed this lesson, as it shows up throughout your work.

    It seems like whenever you present something like this, you point to every reason why you are right, why your thesis is correct, but you rarely present the other side of the argument. Why not discuss the valid reasons why Wandy ISN’T worth this contract on the open market, and refute the validity of each of those, then present your side of the argument – that’s called thorough analysis.

    What you might find, however, is that in this case those arguments against Wandy’s value DO have validity. While they may not be rooted in the statistical theory and research that we value – they nonethless have real world and market value. For the love of god, could you imagine being in an arbitration hearing, where people are citing RBIs and wins? That is the market, Dave.

    If you are talking about true talent, great. Let’s hash out true talent, because Wandy is a pretty interesting case. But that’s not what this article was about after the first paragraph. It was about a pitcher with a largish contract being put on waivers, and whether it would be crazy if a team picked him up. It’d be nice if you completed the article that you set out to write once in a while, instead of plugging your fingers in your ears, spouting off your narrow point of view.

    Comment by Telo — August 24, 2011 @ 12:42 pm

  25. @Telo – Houston, the 4th largest city in the US, is not a “tiny market team”. Sure, the Astros don’t spend as much on player salaries as they should, the city is full of crappy fair weathered fans, and we get no media attention, but we’re not a tiny market.

    If the Astros do actually dump Wandy to the Rox just to shed salary, then we know exactly what to expect from Jim Crane….the next Jeffrey Loria.

    Comment by Calm Like A Bomb — August 24, 2011 @ 12:56 pm

  26. “Sure, the Astros don’t spend as much on player salaries as they should, the city is full of crappy fair weathered fans, and we get no media attention, but we’re not a tiny market.”

    You have defined small market team. It doesn’t matter if you have a zillion zillionaires living 10 miles from the stadium, if they don’t care about the team, it’s a small market.

    Comment by Telo — August 24, 2011 @ 1:05 pm

  27. Telo,

    Dave mentioned (in the opening paragraph) the main point against claiming Wandy is his percieved “burdensome contract”, and then went on to explain why the contract isn’t burdensome. Isn’t that exactly what you are talking about?

    I have some constructive criticism for you: Go away.

    Comment by rickie weeks — August 24, 2011 @ 1:09 pm

  28. Not playing too nice anymore apparently. Whew, that was a pointless lecture.

    Dave’s point is this, compare Wandy to other lefties w 3/30s contracts and who would you rather take. All those pitchers have question marks, or they would’ve gotten Cliff Lee money.

    You fail to mention the BIGGEST difference in acquiring Wandy than the teams acquiring Lilly and Wolf, and that’s they’ll also be required to throw in prospects in addition to the cash..

    Comment by MC — August 24, 2011 @ 1:15 pm

  29. Rickie, this clearly went over your head. The question is simply “is it crazy for a team pickup Wandy’s contract?” as Heyman claimed. The next logical question is “what is his market value – and is it comparable to his current contract?” His market value is determined by many factors – one of which is true talent as we saberists can best measure it (I somewhat disagreed with Dave’s representation – in my first post). His true talent, however, is not nearly the only factor in determining market value. This was my criticism of Dave (in my second post).

    I believe if you read everything more thoroughly instead of resulting to ad hoc insults, you may have understood this.

    Please try to read the actual content and engage your brain before you insult people.

    Comment by Telo — August 24, 2011 @ 1:20 pm

  30. I was joking. I’m from Houston and an Astros fan, and it pisses me off that teams like the Twins and Mariners spend more than us. It’s embarrasing. And now the rumors are swirling that Jim Crane is looking to cut salary to about 50 mil a year, and its just damn depressing.

    As for the subject of the article, I think Wandy is worth his contract. I’ve seen him pitch multiple times in person and on TV, and while his fastball isn’t anything special, he does have a knee-buckling curve and good control. Any left hander who is roughly 16% better than league average while pitching half his games at Minute Maid with that short left field porch is worth 10-13 mil a year.

    Comment by Calm Like A Bomb — August 24, 2011 @ 1:31 pm

  31. Going by FG war-to-$ value, and extrapolating from the perecentage of a season this year, Wandy is worth well over $13 mil/season over the last 5 seasons.

    Comment by hairball — August 24, 2011 @ 1:44 pm

  32. Telo, you’re bonkers.

    Comment by Luke — August 24, 2011 @ 1:47 pm

  33. So if the Rockies trade away Ubaldo and then claim Wandy, are they trying to contend and not contend at the same time? That’s a neat trick.

    Comment by Aaron W. — August 24, 2011 @ 2:03 pm

  34. Telo,

    I suggest you follow your own advice, because clearly you didn’t read the part of Dave’s post where he evaluates Wandy’s market value by comparing him to other contracts signed recently by similar pitchers on the OPEN MARKET.

    Also, you are the only one throwing around insults here (5 by my count in the response to me). Saying “Go away” isn’t an insult, it’s a request. And consider it still on the table.

    Comment by rickie weeks — August 24, 2011 @ 2:09 pm

  35. Maybe it’s time for JackZ to make another contract for contract kind of deal (Figgins for Wandy). I have a hard time believing this wouldn’t work out better for the M’s than the Bradley-Silva swap did. I also can’t imagine the Astros would go for this, but then again, they are being run by Ed Wade…

    Comment by Mike — August 24, 2011 @ 2:38 pm

  36. It would be a neat trick … take a slight down grade in Ubaldo to Wandy, but pick up several very good prospects in the process. Looks good for the Rockies as long as they don’t give up too much for Wandy.

    Comment by Mike — August 24, 2011 @ 2:39 pm

  37. I definitely agree with Dave that it’s not an albatross contract and that Wandy is rather decent. BUT, just because 3/30 type deals have recently been give to worse pitchers and the fact that Wandy would get this same type deal on the open market doesn’t make it necessary a smart move. I think everyone would agree that the chances of a team getting surplus value on this contract are very low. I think almost any team would be better off using this money instead to lock up a good young player to a long term deal. Or, instead of hitching your wagon to Wandy for three years, I’d rather the freedom to sign pitchers to 1yr deals for comparable money over this time frame.

    Comment by Mike — August 24, 2011 @ 2:52 pm

  38. His issues with stats aside, what troubles me most with Heyman is the fact he’s got an ESPN-era Peter Gammons thing going on, with him trumpeting Boras clients the way Gammons used to trumpet “special” Sox prospects. After a while, it becomes pretty obvious where he gets a lot of his information from, and it hurts his credibility. I eagerly await his bizarre claims this offseason about how Magglio deserves a 2-3 year deal at 10+ million a pop.

    Comment by Sean O'Neill — August 24, 2011 @ 3:01 pm

  39. Mike, good luck getting a good reliable starting pitcher to sign on a one-year deal. What you can get there are pitchers trying to come back from injury, former top prospects that never lived up to their hype and are looking for another chance, or older pitchers near the end of their career who are trying to recapture some of their past glory. Competent, healthy, proven, reliable pitchers get multi-year deals in free agency.

    You may be right that it’s not wise to commit that kind of money to free agent (or the equivalent) starting pitchers, but that’s how the market is set. If a team can’t find internal options that are satisfactory, and can’t swing a trade for a cost-controlled pitcher (which is going to cost you in talent rather than dollars), then they’re going to have to pay market rate to get a pitching upgrade. A team might get lucky once in a while by pulling in a guy on a one-year deal, but that’s a roll of the dice. The only pitchers available for a one-year deal have big question marks.

    Comment by Nathaniel Dawson — August 24, 2011 @ 9:50 pm

  40. Rickie Weeks and Troy Telowitzki – competitors on the field AND the web.

    Comment by Ousy — August 24, 2011 @ 9:50 pm

  41. “People get bad contracts all the time after one or two great years, ala Wolf and Lilly. ”

    I had a “good” half-season stint with the Dodgers, and my peripherals that were congruent with my ERA (3.52). I had a K/9 of 9 and a BB/9 < 2, but my home run rate (HR/9 = 1.5) was worse than the league average. Nevertheless, anyone who casually watches my starts would notice that I have an above-average home-run rate in addition to low fastball velocity; it is not something that I can conceal from any front-office, so the Dodgers knew what they were not purchasing superlative pitching talent for three years. Perhaps I was outperforming my talent with my impressive K/BB ratio, but GMs should at least have a rudimentary grasp of the concept of "regression" and the pernicious impact of age on most pitchers.

    Although I most certainly yen for more velocity on my fastball so I don't have to trade a "high" strikeout rate for a high home-run rate**, I can at least give my team a decent chance to win by relying on my secondary pitches. Even though I pitch on a non-contending team, I still try to give the fans something magnificent (not merely a win), such as a complete-game shutout, such as the 11K 2BB 2H game against the Rockies on 8/19/11. I don't mind losing low-leverage games (from our team's perspective) if I pitched better than my opponent, like in my duel against Wolf; he got four double plays and a triple play, but gave 5 walks and got 5 strikeouts, but I got six strikeouts, two walks, and a home run.

    ** I wonder if, when fastball velocity is controlled, that there is a trade-off between home-run rate and strikeout rate. For instance,
    Paul Maholm, who like myself is a soft-tossing lefty, has an uninspired low strikeout rate (career K/9 = 5.5) but a respectable home run rate (career HR/9 = .8). Perhaps, I trade an increased K-rate for an increased home run rate.

    Comment by Ted Lilly — August 24, 2011 @ 11:52 pm

  42. The Mariners would have to pick up all of Wandy’s salary and a chunk of Figgins. The Astros aren’t looking to trade Wandy because he doesn’t perform. They simply can’t afford him under their payroll constraints when they still have to pay Carlos Lee, Brett Myers and Brandon Lyon. They can divest themselves of Wandy’s money easiest. Taking any salary in return for Wandy doesn’t solve their problem. This is a situation where Wade really doesn’t make much impact, as long as he doesn’t give up too much money in the deal to cover parts of Wandy’s contract just to get marginal prospects in return.

    I applaud the Rockies for taking the initiative to attain his services. The Cubs were really the only passing team that could have taken on his contract, and that comes with it a lot of assumption. It would have been interesting to see which other teams would have done the same or would have bid had Rodriguez became an asset the Astros could shop around.

    Comment by JamesDaBear — August 25, 2011 @ 4:22 am

  43. @Telo: Spending like you’re a small market team does not make your market smaller.

    Comment by Zeke — August 25, 2011 @ 10:01 am

  44. And by the time those prospects start contributing, Wandy is a free agent.

    Comment by Aaron W. — August 25, 2011 @ 10:34 am

  45. “You have defined small market team. It doesn’t matter if you have a zillion zillionaires living 10 miles from the stadium, if they don’t care about the team, it’s a small market.”

    No, it absolutely doesn’t. It means its a poorly realized market.

    Boston isn’t a huge market. Its just extremely well utilized. Houston is a large market. The team’s ownership has just done a terrible job utilizing that market.

    Comment by RC — August 25, 2011 @ 4:55 pm

  46. “@Telo: Spending like you’re a small market team does not make your market smaller.

    no, but consistently losing does. And the astros do that.

    Comment by RC — August 25, 2011 @ 4:56 pm

  47. The impression that Crane has given is he wants to blow up and rebuild the Astros from the ground floor. Crane stated that the goal of 50 million is for 2012. While I haven’t seen anything where he explicitly stated that the 50 million goal is temporary, that is the assumption that I really hope is true. Crane was a part of Mark Cuban’s group that bid on the Rangers… making another hopeful assumption here, but I find it hard to believe that he would not have some proclivity to spend in the future. If that’s the case, I agree with the strategy. The farm system is still in the rough, and I don’t see the point in paying the remaining mid-level FA contract guys we have in an attempt to lose fewer than 100 games.

    Comment by no. 34 — August 25, 2011 @ 6:44 pm

Leave a comment

Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>

Close this window.

0.217 Powered by WordPress