FanGraphs Baseball


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  1. Very interesting. Fangraphs staff gave the awards to exactly who I would have.

    Comment by Steve — September 22, 2011 @ 1:14 pm

  2. Honestly, I think the races are so close in the NL MVP and Cy Young that there is something to be said for waiting until the season’s over to vote.

    Comment by Jon Weisman — September 22, 2011 @ 1:14 pm

  3. Two of you voted Mark Trumbo and his .296 OBP for AL ROY? Ugh.

    Comment by gosensgo101 — September 22, 2011 @ 1:15 pm

  4. 2.4 WAR in a still incomplete season is perfectly respectable for ROY. Not going to win, obviously.

    Comment by Oscar — September 22, 2011 @ 1:19 pm

  5. I can’t believe Edinson Volquez got no love in the NL ROY voting. For shame Fangraphs.Do you guys even watch baseball!!!!1!!

    Comment by Santos — September 22, 2011 @ 1:22 pm

  6. Eric actually voted for him in both the NL and AL.

    Comment by Jack Moore — September 22, 2011 @ 1:29 pm

  7. I’m going to need to hear some CC voters back up their choice for the AL Cy.

    Comment by novaether — September 22, 2011 @ 1:31 pm

  8. Well played, sir.

    Comment by Santos — September 22, 2011 @ 1:31 pm

  9. Apparently CC’s .16 superiority in HR rates trumps Verlander’s advantage in K/9, BB/9, and IP for them.

    Comment by Dave — September 22, 2011 @ 1:35 pm

  10. You should be thanking me for not picking J.P. Arencibia!

    Comment by Navin — September 22, 2011 @ 1:36 pm

  11. Editing note: Pineda got the majority of the votes (12/21)

    Comment by TK — September 22, 2011 @ 1:37 pm

  12. Confused about how Espinosa got ZERO votes. I mean, Kimbrel’s been dominant and all, but I figured someone would vote for the rookie leader in WAR. I guess not.

    Comment by Matt H — September 22, 2011 @ 1:39 pm

  13. Respectable is one thing, undercutting other rookies that were more productive is another.

    Comment by Tom B — September 22, 2011 @ 1:41 pm

  14. Pitcher WAR. Tee Hee.

    Comment by Tom B — September 22, 2011 @ 1:41 pm

  15. And I can’t see voting for Lawrie, who played all of six weeks, over equally productive players who were around longer.

    Comment by ecp — September 22, 2011 @ 1:43 pm

  16. I think the consensus on Kimbrel as ROY suggests that while Espinosa has certainly been good, great even, for a rookie, Kimbrel’s been on — and I believe this is the scientific term — “some next shit.”

    Comment by Navin — September 22, 2011 @ 1:44 pm

  17. Surprised no one voted for Ackley, not even Dave. That’s who I’d pick.

    Comment by Vin — September 22, 2011 @ 1:44 pm

  18. Ellsbury is so overrated it’s ridiculous. Downfalls of WAR are becoming glaringly obvious. When Gardner makes the Top25 with a .260 BA and no power… you know something is wrong with the speed guys WAR numbers.

    Comment by Tom B — September 22, 2011 @ 1:45 pm

  19. Lawrie only had 171 PA. Hellickson has 1.7 WAR thanks to a 4.33 FIP. Pineda is clearly better but I could see Trumbo as a reasonable choice for second place.

    Comment by Oscar — September 22, 2011 @ 1:46 pm

  20. Klaassen really voted Bruce Chen for Cy Young. God bless you, sir.

    Comment by Dekker — September 22, 2011 @ 1:48 pm

  21. No love for of Joey Votto? He’s tried with Braun for second in WAR and leads the NL in WPA for the second year in a row (repeatable skill?)

    Comment by newsense — September 22, 2011 @ 1:48 pm

  22. i think this is a pointless exercise until the season is over, especially with the mvp races being so close. At a glance this mostly reads like a WAR leaderboard.

    Comment by thalooch — September 22, 2011 @ 1:48 pm

  23. k.

    Comment by Telo — September 22, 2011 @ 1:49 pm

  24. AL MVP and CY: Verlander
    NL MVP and CY: Hallday
    AL ROY: Pineda
    NL ROY: Kimbrel

    can you imagine an all pitchers awards ballot? Won’t happen, but that would be fantastic.

    Comment by phoenix2042 — September 22, 2011 @ 1:54 pm

  25. Respect

    Comment by TheGrandslamwich — September 22, 2011 @ 1:54 pm

  26. As it should.

    Comment by GiantHusker — September 22, 2011 @ 1:56 pm

  27. maybe that’s because WAR tends to correlate very well with the best players in the league. maybe not in this exact order, but guys who place high in award races tend to have some performance to back it up. not always the absolute best performance, but at least enough to get a nice place near the top of the WAR leaderboards. would you rather the authors/voters simply ignore WAR or any kind of statistical or performance based leader board and simply vote on gut feeling?

    Comment by phoenix2042 — September 22, 2011 @ 1:58 pm

  28. Almost happened back in ’68 (year of the pitcher). Gibson and Maclain doubled up, and Stan Bahnsen (!?!) was the AL ROY. If not for Johnny Bench, it would have happened, as the NL second-place finisher was Jerry Koosman.

    Comment by Blueyays — September 22, 2011 @ 1:58 pm

  29. I voted for Trumbo for a few reasons… It came down to him and Pineda for me and I went with the everyday guy. He’s probably going to hit 30 homers as a rookie, and there are only 20 guys in the majors this year that have met or surpassed that mark. That’s pretty big, legit power. Plus, all reports have him as a very good defender, so he’s not a one-trick pony. If he can mature enough as a hitter to get his walk rate up to even 6-7% then he could have a nice future ahead.

    As for Sabathia vs Verlander, the numbers are so similar you really could go either way and come out with a worthy winner.

    Comment by Marc Hulet — September 22, 2011 @ 2:00 pm

  30. true. kind of an under the radar amazing season. maybe his lack of HR compared to kemp and braun hide his value, even though his OBP is nuts.

    Comment by phoenix2042 — September 22, 2011 @ 2:00 pm

  31. Not equally productive; equally valuable perhaps. Lawrie beats everybody on rate stats, and put up a very comparable WAR.

    Comment by gabriel — September 22, 2011 @ 2:05 pm

  32. Wow the ROY voting really surprised me. I think Pineda and Kimbrel are the right choices, but not a single vote for Eric Hosmer or Freddie Freeman?

    Comment by DonCoburleone — September 22, 2011 @ 2:11 pm

  33. I can confirm that this actually happened.

    Comment by Chris Cwik — September 22, 2011 @ 2:15 pm

  34. You mean FG writers are allowed to have an opinion beyond the fwar leaderboard? Why?

    Comment by Jay — September 22, 2011 @ 2:21 pm


    Comment by sam spade — September 22, 2011 @ 2:22 pm

  36. I just assume some writers wanted to hammer home the (true) point that CC’s season has been ALMOST as good as Verlander’s.

    Comment by jake — September 22, 2011 @ 2:23 pm

  37. Ivan Nova also has 2.4 WAR on the season and received no votes.

    Comment by Avon Navi — September 22, 2011 @ 2:25 pm

  38. Tied in WAR, better FIP and xFIP, pitches in the tougher division and tougher ball park.

    Comment by Erik H — September 22, 2011 @ 2:27 pm

  39. Though I agree with your larger point to look beyond OBP, I wish everyone would look beyond simply shouting a WAR value.

    Comment by Sandy Kazmir — September 22, 2011 @ 2:27 pm

  40. Don’t make me come over there, Tom.

    Comment by Joe West — September 22, 2011 @ 2:27 pm

  41. where’s jonah keri’s vote? for that matter, what happened to him at all? he hasn’t written here since 8/8

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 2:28 pm

  42. well dave cameron sure doesn’t feel like varying that much. so much for WAR not being all you should use…

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 2:30 pm

  43. if you press that lit blue button towards the bottom right of your monitor, the stats will go away just like that! also, sam spade would be about as old as murray chass at this point, so i’m picturing murray chass writing that

    Comment by juan pierre's mustache — September 22, 2011 @ 2:33 pm

  44. he took a job at grantland on or about 8/8

    Comment by juan pierre's mustache — September 22, 2011 @ 2:33 pm

  45. Comment by Santos — September 22, 2011 @ 2:34 pm

  46. so punish lawrie for getting hit in the wrist? if he’s been better, he’s been better, and that’s it.

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 2:34 pm

  47. If my previous post wasn’t clear enough, it should read ”

    Comment by Santos — September 22, 2011 @ 2:35 pm

  48. damn these HTML tags.

    Comment by Santos — September 22, 2011 @ 2:35 pm

  49. i mean, with 21 people voting, you would expect a few would line up with WAR just coincidentally, and i imagine that in the absence of good reasons to think WAR is off in any specific case you would expect most saber writers to end up voting with it. just because it can be wrong doesn’t mean it always is

    Comment by juan pierre's mustache — September 22, 2011 @ 2:37 pm

  50. In other news, Jason Whitlock’s caps lock key is broken.

    Comment by Brandon Warne — September 22, 2011 @ 2:38 pm

  51. I’m pretty surprised Bautista went over Ellsbury. Bautista seems like the “stathead” pick to make given how he led in WAR most of the year, but even that fails with Ellsbury now leading the pack. He’s not as heavy with the bat as Bautista but he is the leader of a successful team and offers a much wider array of skills. It’s like, would you rather have the greatest bat or the guy who was great at everything?

    Comment by Jonathan Aicardi — September 22, 2011 @ 2:39 pm

  52. ah. i miss him, he was my favorite writer here…

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 2:41 pm

  53. Good to see someone providing exactly the right amount of value to this exercise that it deserves.

    Comment by Steve — September 22, 2011 @ 2:45 pm

  54. it just seems awfully hypocritical for the FG staff to, in almost every case, vote the WAR leader as the winner of the respective concerned award right after the “official position” fiasco

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 2:49 pm

  55. I’m not “simply shouting a WAR value”. Those guys are all close enough together in value (which we know from looking at WAR) that there’s room for disagreement without someone being definitely wrong.

    Comment by Oscar — September 22, 2011 @ 2:49 pm

  56. What does “punish” have to do with anything? I don’t think it makes him a worse player, but I don’t think a month of play justifies the ROY. In the same way that I wouldn’t vote a hyper-talented player with a few 10 WAR seasons and a six-year career into the HOF.

    Comment by Oscar — September 22, 2011 @ 2:51 pm

  57. Ugh.

    Comment by Colin — September 22, 2011 @ 2:52 pm

  58. you don’t think sandy koufax belongs in the hall of fame?

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 2:53 pm

  59. I am more shocked that Freddie Freeman didn’t get any votes than I am that Espinosa didn’t get any votes. Espinosa is hitting .238/.324/.420……a lot worse than Freddie’s .281/.351/.452.

    In any event, Kimbrel does deserve the award.

    Comment by JT Grace — September 22, 2011 @ 2:59 pm

  60. Espinosa had 16 HR’s at the all-star break, and, incl. his 2 this week, has 5 since. He’s batting .232 with a .310 OBP since the break. I think Espinosa’s award was making the all-star team, as he’s crashed back to earth since then. No ROY for you!!

    Comment by Trotter76 — September 22, 2011 @ 3:01 pm

  61. Competition and park are already accounted for in WAR, try again.

    Comment by jake — September 22, 2011 @ 3:01 pm

  62. Klaassen is OBSESSED with Bruce Chen. At least 1/3 of his chats are reserved for Chen.

    Comment by JT Grace — September 22, 2011 @ 3:03 pm

  63. It all depends on the offensive gap between your theoretical greatest bat and 5 tool player. In this specific case, I think Bautista has built a big enough gap to offset Ellsbury’s speed and defense. It’s not like Bautista is a slouch in other categories either.

    Comment by Eric — September 22, 2011 @ 3:03 pm

  64. could be because espinosa isn’t very good.

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 3:04 pm

  65. Fear of UZR fluctuations.

    Comment by jake — September 22, 2011 @ 3:04 pm

  66. I disagree. Yes is OBP is below average but his, currently, 29 HR and 87 RBI’s, have been invaluable to the Angel’s this year. If he wasn’t providing a big chunk of the lost production of Kendrys Morales the Angel’s wouldn’t even be in the Wild Card chase.

    Throw in a handful of SB’s and the rookie deserves to be in the top 2 consideration.

    Comment by ettin — September 22, 2011 @ 3:08 pm

  67. Now there’s an entirely cogent argument!

    Comment by chuckb — September 22, 2011 @ 3:16 pm

  68. Additionally he has 9 steals… He moves well for his size and his defense at 1B is above average. He really deserves more credit than he is getting and I hope that he either wins ROY or is in the top 2.

    Comment by ettin — September 22, 2011 @ 3:17 pm

  69. how is this getting minuses? it’s obviously a hilarious mocking post of the “stat-mocker” crowd

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 3:18 pm

  70. I feel like this is fairly close to the way things will actually shake down. If I had to guess, I’d say:

    Granderson – AL MVP
    Verlander – AL Cy Young
    Hellickson – AL ROY

    Braun – NL MVP
    Kerhsaw – NL Cy Young
    Kimbrel – NL ROY

    For all the exposure WAR has had among mainstream writers in regard to the MVP and Cy Young awards, for some reason I feel like they’ll fall back on more traditional stats for ROY, and Hellickson’s 13-10, 2.90 season seems like something for which they’d vote.

    Comment by Chris — September 22, 2011 @ 3:26 pm

  71. Yeah, I’d vote for both of them over several guys who did get votes – Trumbo, Lawrie, Jennings, Beachy. People will cite WAR on Hosmer and Freeman, but both are downrated because of their dWAR, which is a horrible measure for first basemen.

    Comment by ecp — September 22, 2011 @ 3:41 pm

  72. Something I miss are those daily game WPA threads that just vanished. I asked about them once before and received no response, thus I assume the answer is “We got sick of writing that.”

    Comment by SC2GG — September 22, 2011 @ 3:53 pm

  73. WAR is obscure and ill defined, even the two major stats sites (fangraphs and Baseball Reference) differ in the value. I like it when it makes Willie Mays look like the greatest baseball player ever (and he was) but I hate it when it makes Bautista look like a great player when he’s not. The traditional stats and the traditional attitudes will make the choices, which is not a bad thing.

    Comment by Hurtlocker — September 22, 2011 @ 4:02 pm

  74. Why is “narrative” a bad word? Baseball is a leisure activity for 99.9999999999999999999999% of the world. Let’s denigrate interesting/compelling stories about a GAME.

    Comment by Tim — September 22, 2011 @ 4:09 pm

  75. FIP is already factored into WAR. Verlander has the supreme SIERA.

    In terms of which pitcher has the more “outstanding” season, it’s got to be Verlander.

    Comment by novaether — September 22, 2011 @ 4:30 pm

  76. Bautista is NOT a great baseball player? Wow.

    Comment by Ivdown — September 22, 2011 @ 4:55 pm

  77. Shocked that Granderson didnt get a single vote, and equally shocked that Kershaw only got three 1st place votes

    Comment by cs3 — September 22, 2011 @ 5:16 pm

  78. Hmm, I’m surprised that Ogando and Britton didn’t get any votes, while Hellickson got two.

    Comment by SeanP — September 22, 2011 @ 5:27 pm

  79. LOL- you like it when it confirms what you think you know, and dislike it when it presents new alternatives. i remember when i was in the 1600s

    Comment by jim — September 22, 2011 @ 5:56 pm

  80. Ellsbury is NOT a 5 tool player… why in the world does everyone just use an athletic defender with power and 5 tool player interchangeably?.

    Or perhaps I’m underestimating Ellbsury’s cannon of an arm?

    ESPN not too long ago were talking about how Crawford and Elsbury were two of the top 5 tool players in the game (Crawford at best is a 4 tool player, and depending on how you view his power, he might be a 3 tool player)

    Comment by joe — September 22, 2011 @ 6:01 pm

  81. Or how Hellickson got votes over Ivan Nova (in addition to Ogando and Britton). I know there’s an aversion to wins, but Nova’s got better advanced #’s than Hellboy. I’m surprised to see ERA having that much weight on this site for some votes, and not so much for others…

    I can understand both outlooks but it’s interesting to see the inconsistent application of these outlooks over different awards.

    Comment by joe — September 22, 2011 @ 6:07 pm

  82. had the same reaction. If FG believes in its stats, then you would think that Espinosa would at least merit a few votes. Currently, he leads Kimbrel in WAR by .4, not an insignificant margin. Moreover, FG writers are constantly telling us that relievers are not very valuable. My guess is that the result has more to do with how these players were perceived coming into the year rather than their actual performances. (See jim’s analysis-free “he isn’t any good” comment below)

    Comment by mw — September 22, 2011 @ 6:15 pm

  83. This is merely a public masterbation session to fWAR

    Comment by Rufio Magillicutty — September 22, 2011 @ 6:32 pm

  84. Because any comment in all-caps is crap.

    Comment by Notrotographs — September 22, 2011 @ 6:38 pm

  85. Navin: I now have a voodoo doll of you on my credenza for not voting for Brett Lawrie!

    Comment by bluejaysstatsgeek — September 22, 2011 @ 7:19 pm

  86. The stats that have CC as better (just FIP and xFIP by my browsing, and xFIP has no place in awards discussion because it’s predictive rather than descriptive) are marginally different, with the FIP difference being 0.05. The stats that have Verlander ahead often have a pretty substantial difference. Verlander leads in tERA by a huge amount and in SIERA by a larger amount than any of CC’s advantages

    The DIPS stats generally favor Verlander, Verlander pitched more innings and if you’re of the mindset that pitchers DO have some control over BIP, Verlander is almost indisputably harder to hit. Hell, even his WPA is better!

    It’s really hard to argue in an unbiased way that CC deserves the Cy Young this year.

    Comment by Jeff — September 22, 2011 @ 7:35 pm

  87. Easy, the real question is why did CC get so few votes. Compare LOB% and BABIP and one can easily see Verlander has had a lot more luck this season. The additional edge in FIP, X-FIP and the fact the he has been dealing with an awkward 6-man rotation gives the impression CC is undervalued here.

    Comment by Cliff Lee's Changeup — September 22, 2011 @ 7:39 pm

  88. Come on. Ok, ROY is one thing, but arguing that Trumbo is ever going to be good is ridiculous.

    Among qualifying 1B – Trumbo is LAST in OBP. wOBA he’s above Loney and below Carlos Lee. The guy is also 25. He’s not going to ‘mature’ as a hitter and nearly double his BB% rate.

    Comment by Josh — September 22, 2011 @ 7:52 pm

  89. Putting the BABIP difference all on luck is misguided, especially considering CC’s superior defense (compared to what the Tigers have been putting behind Verlander).

    Comment by jake — September 22, 2011 @ 7:55 pm

  90. Phew, glad to know that I’m not the only one typing with only one hand right now.

    Comment by Josh — September 22, 2011 @ 7:57 pm

  91. Ogando is not a rookie. Service time.

    Comment by Adam — September 22, 2011 @ 8:05 pm

  92. Who is a 5 tool player nowadays? Longoria? He has okay speed, but I don’t know if it’s “plus”. Obviously his BABIP is keeping his average down this year.

    I hear Kemp’s name thrown around, but he definitely doesn’t have the glove. Definitely at least average though.

    A-Rod doesn’t have the speed. Neither does Tulo.

    Maybe CarGo? I don’t really watch him play, so I can’t really comment. He passes the “look at said player’s fangraphs page for a moment” test though.

    There certainly aren’t as many as there have been in the past.

    Comment by Jeff — September 22, 2011 @ 9:33 pm

  93. .4 actually is statistically insignificant; well within the margin of error for position players and DEFINITELY within the margin for pitchers.

    Comment by TFINY — September 22, 2011 @ 9:41 pm

  94. If he starts to produce with the bat then maybe Heyward. Justin Upton? He’s not particularly fast but Jay Bruce could have double digit steals.

    Comment by Steve — September 23, 2011 @ 12:30 am

  95. Cool stuff.

    Comment by Bronnt — September 23, 2011 @ 2:02 am

  96. I’m less surprised by Granderson being omitted by the FG staff, but I really don’t understand how it can be so lopsided in favor of Halladay over Kershaw.

    Is it really just as simple as “he leads in (FG) WAR (because of FIP) and therefore he wins” or what? Even the FG glossary page for FIP says it’s a better predictor than descriptor. Shouldn’t other metrics come into consideration for an end-of-season award like the Cy Young?

    Comment by bawfuls — September 23, 2011 @ 2:30 am

  97. and for that matter, they differ in SIERA by 0.04, and both trail Lee (and Greinke) by that measure.

    Comment by bawfuls — September 23, 2011 @ 2:33 am


    Comment by YEAH!!1!!1! — September 23, 2011 @ 2:49 am

  99. I used the phrase “theoretical tool 5 tool player” for a reason. Whether Ellsbury is a 2, 3, 4, or 5 tool player was immaterial to the point I hoped to make. In my opinion Bautista’s offensive performance trumps any argument that Ellsbury is more valuable because he is the more well rounded player.

    Comment by Eric — September 23, 2011 @ 3:14 am

  100. MR. AY- tA-Tn (K)B r(E) a(M) u(P)N for MVP(s)


    (R)m(Y)a(A)t(N)t b(Kemp)raun

    *So, okay. I think they both need to win, because the similarities will make this impossible. True, we have not witnessed Ryan’s first season without Fielder.
    But, like Kemp, Ryan isolates himself and his talent in much the same way a pitcher looks at fip.

    They can find ways around some of the worst offensive environments.

    Braun-Kemp, (MrAyTaTn)

    They win the thing!

    Comment by Jess Lemont — September 23, 2011 @ 6:04 am

  101. I’m probably missing something here, but in all the Halladay for CY/MVP chat that I’ve seen, I’ve not noticed anyone pointing out that his HR rate is unusually low compared to his carrer and say last year (same team)

    Is it the case that Halladay is ‘lucky’ that fWAR counts his lucky HR rate in 2011 whereas Verlander (or Kerhaw etc..) is shit out of luck because it is deemed he has no effect on his hit rate.

    Thats not to say that I’m not worried that Verlander’s GB rate is low and he won’t sustain quite the low hit rate going forward, iI just i think he deserves (at least some) credit for it this year

    So with fWAR having CC = Verlander, and every other advanced stat preferring Verlander, and the fact that he has a great shot of a triple crown, i don’t see how you can pick CC for the AL CY without it being some kind of ‘contrarian attention seeking pick’

    Comment by Paul — September 23, 2011 @ 6:09 am

  102. because mediocre joke + caps lock = still mediocre joke except more annoying

    Comment by juan pierre's mustache — September 23, 2011 @ 9:45 am

  103. Surprised this dead-on comment took so long into the comments. Lawrie, whose defense has been widely panned to the point where some still think he’ll have to move to the OF, has a huge positive dWAR, while Hosmer, whose defense is lauded far and wide, has a huge negative. Lawrie was basically Jesus Guzman.

    This particular vote is really embarrassing for FG. Lawrie essentially got a cup of coffee and won based solely on an unreliable and probably fatally flawed WAR component. The BBWAA is laughing, and toasting their long-term outlook.

    Hosmer will win this award because baseball writers will see that Hosmer was moved to cleanup over a month ago, is being pitched around, and has completely dominated during that time. Someone here will mock the BBWAA for their ROY vote for Hosmer based on WAR, setting a new high water mark for unintentional irony.

    Comment by Paul — September 23, 2011 @ 10:09 am

  104. I mean on Lawrie, got votes… not won. Although Pineda’s limp to the finish line will keep him from receiving the award when people who watch baseball cast their votes.

    Comment by Paul — September 23, 2011 @ 10:10 am

  105. I think it’s just a small sample size issue… if there were 46 fangraphs voters instead of 23, I’m sure the Kershaw/Halladay split would look more normal, and Granderson would get some votes.

    Comment by scrumothy, esquire — September 23, 2011 @ 10:32 am

  106. It’s really kind of funny you make a comment about “those who watch baseball” casting their votes, supposedly for your preferred award candidate – Hosmer – because you hate Lawrie and his defense sucks because you read it somewhere.

    Apparently you don’t watch much baseball yourself because anyone who has actually watched Lawrie play knows how good his defense at third base has been. Anyone still believing he will need to move to the OF in the near future is wrong.

    As for Hosmer, I’d have no serious complaint with him winning, or Trumbo or Pineda for that matter. I haven’t seen Hosmer enough to rate his defense overall – although he did make errors when I did see him play so his defensive rating may be legit. I’ve seen Trumbo make some great plays. All of the candidates have arguments for and against, this award does not have a clear winner so voting will probably be close.

    Comment by keyser soze — September 23, 2011 @ 11:33 am

  107. .304/.448/.615 makes him look like a great player. Look Ma no WAR!

    Comment by Santos — September 23, 2011 @ 12:09 pm

  108. i said: “could be because espinosa isn’t very good.” not ANY good. moron.

    Comment by jim — September 23, 2011 @ 3:05 pm

  109. Keep it classy in here. Jeez, you “your” people.

    Comment by Brandon Warne — September 23, 2011 @ 5:30 pm

  110. Add in 100+walks, 100+ RsBI and leading the league in homers in back to back seasons. It’s not like Bautista’s “traditional” stats aren’t amazing or anything…

    Comment by Brandon — September 25, 2011 @ 2:13 pm

  111. Or a ‘good face’?

    Comment by Born in DC — October 2, 2011 @ 12:49 pm

  112. I have thought at length about this, and both “sides” here are wrong.

    First, WAR makes a league adjustment, and a park adjustment. The AL is a little tougher, NYY is a slight hitters park and DET a slight pitchers park. The former benefits neither, and Sabathia benefits a bit from the later when WAR is calculated.

    However, these adjustments in no way account for “competition”.

    Verlander made 15 starts against the AL Central, with a -325 run differential excluding DET. Verlander made his most starts against CHW, which has a -52 run differential and an 89 wRC+. He went 4-1 with 14 ER.

    Sabathia made 14 starts against the AL East, with a +61 run differential excluding NYY. TBR and BAL are the 3rd best offense in the Central; TOR is 2nd, BOS is 1st by a country mile. Sabathia made his most starts against BOS, which has a 116 wRC+ and a +138 run differential. They walk more, . Sabathia went 1-4 with 22 ER.

    Please indicate where WAR accounts for this difference in “strength of schedule”.

    Comment by cwendt — October 2, 2011 @ 12:59 pm

  113. Or ERA-, for that matter.

    Comment by cwendt — October 2, 2011 @ 1:01 pm

  114. I’m sure more people would vote for ellsbury after his monster final week, even if the red sox collapsed and missed the playoffs

    Comment by William — October 17, 2011 @ 2:56 pm

  115. Lets point and laugh at Josh

    Comment by HPJoker — July 17, 2012 @ 11:49 pm

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