Comment by clevelander — January 11, 2012 @ 11:23 am
The bullpen appears at the moment to be Madson, Marshall, Masset, Bray, Arredondo, Ondrusek and Lecure. I do want to point something else out though. The Reds keep insisting they want Chapman to start and are likely to have him begin the year in Louisville unless he beats out Bailey and Arroyo for the 4th spot in pitching rotation.
I’ve read a lot recently that Chapman is going to be in the pen, but all indications from the team is that he will be starting, and beat writer John Fay has noted they will be willing to send him to AAA if he can’t crack the rotation.
Also, though Marshall is taking Masset’s role he isn’t knocking him out of the bullpen so it’s not a straight WAR swap. Marshall is going to be taking innings that were occupied by guys like Jordan Smith and Carlos Fisher last year.
Nick Masset is still a Red and will be pitching in middle relief, so Marshall should not be seen as replacing him. Rather it should be seen as replacing either Aroldis Chapman (50 IP, 0.6 WAR – headed to the AAA rotation most likely) or as bumping guys further down the line down to AAA. If you consider that Carlos Fisher, Jordan Smith, Matt Maloney and Jeremy Horst combined for 78 innings and -0.8 WAR.
As of today, the Reds 2011 pen looks like this:
CL: Ryan Madson
RH SU: Nick Masset
LH SU: Sean Marshall
RH MR: Jose Arredondo
LH MR: Bill Bray
RH LR: Logan Ondrusek
LH LR: Sam LeCure
Comment by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat — January 11, 2012 @ 12:08 pm
We Reds fans are quite pleased with this development.
Comment by GlennBraggsSwingAndMissBrokenBat — January 11, 2012 @ 12:13 pm
Is the replacement level for a closer or reliever defined the same way as it is for starting pitchers? Is there anything to having those be different or the same? I buy that the top closers are overpaid on the free market but feel like it’s not as dramatic as we think considering a team like last year’s Cardinals that rifled through closer candidates like crazy, blowing something like 30 saves, until finally sort of settling on Motte.
Is anyone else uncomfortable assigning dollar values to relievers based on WAR? There’s typically not a lot of variance among decent-to-great relievers, who are mostly worth between 1 and 2 WAR per year, and there seems to be room for interpretation up to about half a WAR, meaning that we can’t definitively conclude that a a 1.7-WAR guy had a better season than a 1.2-WAR guy. To assign millions of dollars to those decimal points may come with little risk when discussing long-term contracts for position players or starters, but in the reliever market, there seems to be a logical flaw in saying the Reds overpaid because Madson was only worth$7.6 million in 2011.
I agree with your conclusion, of course, but there has to be another valuation method between $/WAR and the actual reliever market.
“Ryan Madson (+1.7 WAR) replaces Francisco Cordero (+0.1 WAR) = +1.6 WAR gain
Sean Marshall (+2.8 WAR) replaces Nick Masset (+0.6 WAR) = +2.2 WAR gain”
This is where the FIP based WAR model makes things confusing. If we assume static WAR contributions, the result still deceives us since Cordero allowed nearly 2 runs per 9 less than his FIP. So we can’t actually interpret these numbers as the Reds gaining 3 wins over the previous squad since Cordero provided about a win of phantom value that is unaccounted for.
Comment by Brad Johnson — January 11, 2012 @ 12:38 pm
Using $/WAR, especially to look at relief pitching contracts, is not analysis. Please.
fWAR for relievers should have more weight for inning leverage than it does. In Mario’s tenure with the Yankees, their record has easily exceeded their Pythag record. They have a better chance at eking out close victories due to performance in higher leverage situations.
“As has been illustrated countless times amongst the sabermetric community, relievers do not provide as much value as an everyday position player or a starting pitcher. For example, the most innings a reliever threw last year was 93 innings by Alfredo Aceves, while 137 starting pitchers threw at least 100 innings. The overall impact is lessened due to fewer opportunities.”
Well well, look at that. You mean to tell me that starters throw more than relievers? And that a model relying heavily on IP contributions somehow deems those starters as more valuable than the relievers? You dont say.
That may or may not be true. We can chalk up at least some of the difference between Cordero’s ERA and FIP to the Reds defense. Since Madson will benefit from essentially the same defense this year that Cordero had last year, we might expect him to outperform his FIP as well.
I’ll go with the rest of the folk here who don’t think that WAR is good for analyzing relievers, as it just treats them like small sample size starters. Even this site has had articles saying that maybe WPA is a better way of looking at it, and of relievers with at least 50IP in 2011, Madson had the 17th best net WPA. I believe the only pitcher on the market this offseason with a better WPA was Papelbon.
And adding WAR, which uses a predictive FIP stat, to describe last year’s “net WAR increase” over the old bullpen is silly, as one person already mentioned, as Cordero significantly outperformed his FIP. It may not have been as pretty, but he did prevent runs from scoring.
Do we know what officially happened with Madson, Boras, and Philly? Is it more or less an undisputed fact that Philly offered Madson four years, $44 mil and that Madson turned that offer down? Or is the truth more complicated than that? This appears to be a proverbial “epic fail” by Boras but maybe there are some facts here that I am unaware of.
Article on ESPN basically said that Boras thought they had a deal at 4 years 44 and Amaro said they were talking about it but that Papelbon became available for similar and they decided to go with him. So it actually does not sound like Boras totally f-ed his client, sounds like the Phillies just preferred Papelbon for a bit more.
Any valuation method that treats the 6th inning in a blow out the same as the 9th inning in a 1 run game is worthless.
For most teams, including the Reds, losing a few games a good closer would have saved is no big deal, but for teams expecting to W with large payrolls like the Phillies, Yankees and Red Sox (under Theo), they understand the value of a good closer, who is also consistent.
In Bailey, the Red Sox have a good closer, but a guy who has not thrown much more than 40 IP the past 2 years (meaning someone else is closing for 20+ innings) . Consistency (and durability) is priceless when it comes to closers.
Prince Fielder, Edwin Jackson, Carlos Pena, Johnny Damon, JD Drew, Pudge Rodriguez, Magglio Ordonez, Jason Varitek, Rick Ankiel, and Kevin Millwood are all have two things in common. 1. They are all Scott Boras clients -and- 2. They are all unsigned while Scott plays out his traditional “slow play”. This year, it is going to cost him and his clients. Alot of those are serviceable for the right team, or teams. There are stars, was stars, and decent in the list. Boras just mis-read the market as he has for a couple years now. Yes, he will get his money, but…. he is costing his clients money by waiting PAST the time the market closes.
Was Venters not worth that much last year? I usually look at baseball-reference just out of habit, I think I remember him at over 3 WAR with them. I think his insane GB% justifies his low ERA.
Comment by Antonio Bananas — January 11, 2012 @ 9:57 pm
3.7 actually, which is more than they have Kimbrel at (3.0).
Comment by Antonio Bananas — January 11, 2012 @ 9:58 pm
Actually there are often 4-5 better pitchers on the team. They are just being used as starters. I do get what you are saying though, teams put their best available guy in for what is percieved to be the highest leverage situation.
I am not buying Scott Boras’ argument regarding what happened with Ryan Madson and the Phillies front office. Jonathan Papelbon is seemingly an upgrade over Madson but he is not a massive upgrade. Surely the Phillies (or any organization for that matter) would take Madson at one year, $8.5 mil over Papelbon at four years, $50 mil.
It is impossible for me to believe that Philly did not convey their interest in Papelbon for slightly more than 4/44 (if $6 mil is “slight,” that is; I suppose everything is relative) to Boras. Boras should have recognized that Papelbon at 4/50 seemed like a better expenditure than Madson at 4/44 and counteroffered with, say, 4/36 or 4/40. Hell, 4/32 would have been significantly better than 1/8.5. It is also impossible for me to believe that Philly management would have opted for Papelbon at 4/50 rather than Madson at 4/32-4/40. It is also impossible for me to believe that Papelbon’s agent would not have subsequently lowered his asking price accordingly. In other words, it appears that Ruben Amaro, Jr. has cost his team $10-$15 mil by being unnecessarily aggressive in the free agency process, and it’s not the first or second time that this has happened while Amaro has been in charge in Philly.
If Prince Fielder doesn’t get anything close to the kind of money that he was hoping he’d get, then we may see Boras lose quite a bit of business in the near future. It will be interesting to see if Boras conducts himself differently next offseason.
I am an attorney and it disgusts me to see an agent not act in his client’s best interest. Extremely unethical behavior by Boras here.
Comment by Robbie G. — January 11, 2012 @ 10:49 pm
Combined WAR totals for the Braves trio(O’Ventbrel):
Man up, Fangraphs, and admit your FIP-based pitcher WAR counts need some work.
exactly, you can’t “well luck…” bullshit your way into saying FIP should be used only. Split the difference at least. If you think Venters lucked his way into having an incredibly low ERA, you’re crazy. Maybe some of it, but jesus that guy is sick. He’s so filthy, they’re thinking about installing shower heads on every seat so people can rinse off after washing him because he’s so filthy you feel like you need a wash after watching him.
Comment by Antonio bananas — January 12, 2012 @ 12:28 am
On a related note, how awesome were the untouchables last year? Maybe the best year by 3 relievers ever? They essentially combined for 238.2 Cy Young innings out of the pen. Strikeouts, groundballs, disgusting.
Comment by Antonio bananas — January 12, 2012 @ 12:31 am
Actually there are often 4-5 better pitchers on the team.
I said most effective, not best. Lower the innings threshold and check the advanced leaderboards for ERA-, FIP-, K%, etc. You will see that it is crammed with late-relievers.
Comment by Phils_Goodman — January 12, 2012 @ 12:33 am
What is this supposed to prove?
Comment by Phils_Goodman — January 12, 2012 @ 12:38 am
Surely the Phillies (or any organization for that matter) would take Madson at one year, $8.5 mil over Papelbon at four years, $50 mil.
That is a false choice. You’re completely ignoring the procedural aspect of free agency (“development of the market”).
If there’s an aspect of the Boras line that you should reject, I would start with the idea that the Phillies ever formally offered Madson 4/44.
Comment by Phils_Goodman — January 12, 2012 @ 12:43 am
They were awesome, right up until when it counted the most…
Comment by Jeff in So. Indiana — January 12, 2012 @ 7:56 am
The crickets and the rust-beetles scuttled among the nettles of the sage thicket. “Vámonos, amigos,” he whispered, and threw the busted leather flintcraw over the loose weave of the saddlecock. And they rode on in the friscalating dusklight.
Comment by ole custer — January 12, 2012 @ 9:45 am
The article doesn’t say that. Read Boras’s statements more carefully. He said that they would agree to such a deal, not that they had agreed to such a deal. Amaro’s response is the key–he asked why he would agree to a deal then not sign him?
Comment by Phils_Goodman — January 12, 2012 @ 6:39 pm
Antonio, Eric O’Flaherty was an even bigger victim of his performance being downgraded by FIP. He led the major leagues in ERA at a stunning 0.98 but his FIP balanced out to 2.54. But of course luck had everything to do with that 0.98 ERA and his over 92% LOB%.