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  1. Don’t you think their respective birth years (1986 vs. 1991) have something to do with the difference in hype?

    Comment by Zach — June 28, 2012 @ 12:20 pm

  2. No, this is all wrong. Bauer has the crazy YouTube vid, he is clearly better!

    Comment by AL Eastbound — June 28, 2012 @ 12:21 pm

  3. So we should discount the 98 innings of average to below average pitching from Cashner and say he will be better than Bauer? Even tough Bauer just crushed the PCL. Do you also seriously think Bauer is a dummy that will make no adjustments if his k/fly ball tactics don’t work?

    Comment by jonnyp07 — June 28, 2012 @ 12:29 pm

  4. Pitchers don’t age like hitters, getting continuously better from 18-27 before beginning their decline. In fact, age for a pitcher is mostly irrelevant outside of its relationship to experience. And in this case, there isn’t a huge experience gap. Cashner has an extra 100 innings in the big leagues and an extra 20 in the high minors. From a development standpoint, they’re in pretty similar spots.

    Comment by Dave Cameron — June 28, 2012 @ 12:29 pm

  5. Cashner’s struggles in the majors were directly related to issuing too many walks. If you think that walks are a problem, then you should probably be concerned about Bauer too. Given that Cashner has shown that he can throw strikes, I’m less concerned with his command issues than Bauer’s. And the significant change in velocity is one of the real points here – Cashner of 2012 isn’t Cashner of 2010. When a guy adds 2.5 MPH to his fastball, it’s worth readjusting our expectations.

    Also, Bauer posted a 3.33 FIP and a .329 BABIP. I don’t know, that doesn’t look like “crushing” the PCL to me. He struck out a lot of guys, but there’s more to pitching than that.

    And of course I don’t think Bauer’s dumb. I’m just noting that his publicly stated method of pitching essentially requires him to have better command than he does now in order to succeed. Bad command while pitching up in the zone is a recipe for a lot of home runs allowed, especially in Arizona. Either he needs to take a drastic step forward in command or he’s going to have to learn to embrace the ground ball. Either way, that’s probably not likely to happen on Day 1.

    Comment by Dave Cameron — June 28, 2012 @ 12:36 pm

  6. Of course, as do their respective draft positions, but as pitchers their age doesn’t necessarily mean anything towards present or future performance.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 12:38 pm

  7. We get it, you think Bauer is overhyped. You’ve made it clear in chats as well. The evidence is fine and dandy, but the tone of the article just feels like you wrote it with the intention of finding Cashner better no matter what, not as an exploratory look into who actually might be better. That tone is unappealing from the beginning as you claim that this is “an object lesson in hype” and talk about the “hype train.”

    The more savvy of us know that Cashner is well worth keeping track of as well, and an article like this is certainly relevant today. But the tone is just feels very biased in a bad way. They’re both good players and are both worthy of our attention.

    Comment by Chummy Z — June 28, 2012 @ 12:39 pm

  8. Poor point on the age thing. Bauer will have much more experience in upper levels and big leagues before he hits 25 like Cashner. Age vs level.

    Comment by Jim Lahey — June 28, 2012 @ 12:39 pm

  9. Guys who “crushed” the PCL last year by putting up similar numbers in the PCL last year in a similar amount of innings: Scott Maine, John Gaub, Michael Kohn, Wil Ledezma, Fernando Cabrera, and Jay Buente.

    Comment by Royo — June 28, 2012 @ 12:40 pm

  10. I didn’t read the piece as arguing that Cashner is necessarily equal to Bauer or that Bauer won’t be an elite pitcher eventually, but the points made regarding walk rate and fly-ball proclivity give some reasons to be concerned about his immediate future. I think the odds of Bauer being a successful pro right out the gate are pretty long. In my opinion, he needs a lot of improvement in his command and control, but injuries and his minor league success forced Arizona’s hand.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 12:41 pm

  11. That doesn’t matter nearly as much for pitchers as it does for hitters.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 12:43 pm

  12. Dave. I hope you didn’t bet your house on the premise of this article. You can do better.

    Comment by ksclacktc — June 28, 2012 @ 12:45 pm

  13. Statcorner shows that Bauer has a GB rate around 45%. Do GB rates from just 500 PA translate from minors to majors? If so, 45% would seem to make a bigish difference over the long run vs. the 40%-and-less guys you mentioned…all else equal.

    Is there any study for translating GB rates from minors to majors? How accurate are Statcorners minor league batted ball figures?

    Comment by Matthias — June 28, 2012 @ 12:48 pm

  14. Cashner is sick. Hes on my fantasy team.

    Comment by Telo2 — June 28, 2012 @ 12:51 pm

  15. If I recall correctly, Cashner pitched well when used as a starter this spring. He might not be good out of the bullpen for whatever reason. There are a number of reasons why relief numbers can be misleading for guys who are used to starting.

    Comment by James — June 28, 2012 @ 12:51 pm

  16. Didn’t Cashner already start a game for the Padres this season? Or was that not a “real” start?

    Comment by Hurtlockertwo — June 28, 2012 @ 12:55 pm

  17. The only fair way to compare these guys is at age. We are currently experiencing Bauer’s age 21 year. You gotta love that age 21 for Cashner 18K and 23W with an FIP of 7.00 at Class A for comparison.

    Comment by ksclacktc — June 28, 2012 @ 12:56 pm

  18. Without reading the author, I instantly knew who wrote this solely based on the title. Ho-hum.

    Comment by Garrett — June 28, 2012 @ 12:57 pm

  19. Just curious. If you redrafted the 2011 draft, is there really any chance bauer doesn’t go #1?

    Comment by Ccoop — June 28, 2012 @ 12:57 pm

  20. Isn’t that a logical fallacy? Saying age doesn’t matter as much for hitters doesn’t say that age is irrelevant for pitchers.

    Comment by Ccoop — June 28, 2012 @ 1:02 pm

  21. did anyone mention that they are lined up to face each other next week? if not then we should all be even more excited for that

    Comment by Tony Starks — June 28, 2012 @ 1:03 pm

  22. Dylan Bundy.

    Comment by YanksFanInBeantown — June 28, 2012 @ 1:14 pm

  23. What will be the highest figure from their combined starts? Walks, IP, or ER

    Comment by John — June 28, 2012 @ 1:18 pm

  24. Actually it really wasn’t a “real” start, if I recall. He was on a strict innings/pitch cap and ended up going 2.1 IP. It was part of the stretching out process for him and since SD was in a bind for pitching they began his stretching out process with that one start in the majors and then sent him down.

    Comment by supershredder — June 28, 2012 @ 1:21 pm

  25. @ Ccoop –
    I don’t think you understand what “logical fallacy” means since what I said certainly isn’t one. Dave covered it in an earlier comment: “Pitchers don’t age like hitters, getting continuously better from 18-27 before beginning their decline. In fact, age for a pitcher is mostly irrelevant outside of its relationship to experience.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 1:21 pm

  26. They’re pitchers, not hitters.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 1:23 pm

  27. I love how you state “let’s start by putting their minor league track records side by side” and proceed to prune that down to AA/AAA, which of course leaves out the following Cashner lines:
    2008: R,A,A+, 20 IP, 23 BB, 19 K.
    2009: A+, 42 IP, 15 BB, 34 K.

    Their true minor league track records side by side:
    Cashner: 196 IP, 83 BB (3.8/9IP), 183 K (8.4/9IP)
    Bauer: 118 IP, 60 BB (4.6/9IP), 159 K (12.1/9IP)

    And that’s with Cashner being 21-22 for all his pre-AA innings, and Bauer being 21 or younger for all of his innings, period.

    I’ll refrain from outright insulting you, and just point out the distortions/shortcomings of your statement.

    Comment by Marver — June 28, 2012 @ 1:29 pm

  28. Why is that the only fair way to compare them?

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 28, 2012 @ 1:33 pm

  29. Not sure what exactly he’s done to differentiate himself from the other top pitchers. Gerritt Cole still has better raw stuff and has still been very good between high A and AA. The point of the minors isn’t to see who puts up the best stats the quickest, it’s to develop as a player. This is especially true for pitchers who are just making the transition to the pro game. I don’t think many teams are changing their opinions based on SSS stats.

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 28, 2012 @ 1:36 pm

  30. To be fair, I’m not exactly sure how relevant Cashner’s struggles 3-4 years ago are to how good he is right now. He’s pretty clearly taken a huge step forward since then.

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 28, 2012 @ 1:37 pm

  31. As keeps being mentioned, age isn’t an important consideration for pitchers since they don’t progress, peak, and decline over time in the exaggerated way that hitters do. Performance by level is relevant, however, which is presumably why Dave just looked at the levels they shared in common. Bauer only having 9 innings below AA means that adding in Cashner’s numbers from that level might skew the comparison.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 1:41 pm

  32. I’m not sure what we gain by choosing a time period that is most advantageous for Cashner, while ignoring his clear MLB struggles (while simultaneously using his MLB velocity as evidence elsewhere), and also discounting age/level entirely. That’s not an objective analysis, not even by the most liberal of definitions.

    I guess the only way to test Dave’s confidence in his assertion that “Bauer’s a talented and interesting kid, but of the two kids joining NL West rotations tonight, he’s the least likely to succeed in the short term, and maybe even in the long term” is to demand a $1000 bet on their WAR for the next X seasons.

    Comment by Marver — June 28, 2012 @ 1:53 pm

  33. While I’m rooting for Cashner (fantasy team), I think the difference in hype is based primarily on pedigree and time anticipating arrival.

    People have been anticipating Bauer for what, about a year now? That tends to help build the hype (imagine Bundy’s hype!).

    Cashner was imported from the Cubs, and I don’t think carried the expectations that a #3 overall draft pick out of college carries. Not only that, but he was a reliever for 28 games already, so I doubt people were expecting a future ace even at the start of this season.

    Comment by Dan S — June 28, 2012 @ 1:56 pm

  34. “I’m not sure what we gain by choosing a time period that is most advantageous for Cashner”

    Not sure if you’re actually serious. You really don’t see what we gain by comparing the more recent version of Cashner to the Bauer instead of holding his struggles of 3-4 years ago (when he was a completely different pitcher) against him? Would you hold Jose Bautista’s struggles in 2007 and 2008 against him when comparing how good he is to other player’s right now?

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 28, 2012 @ 1:57 pm

  35. They should skew the comparison in Cashner’s favor: it’s a lower level. If pitchers don’t ‘progress, peak or decline over time’, then pitching at a lower level (no matter when) should produce BETTER numbers for Cashner. However, they don’t. In fact, he downright sucked at those pre-AA levels.

    Comment by Marver — June 28, 2012 @ 1:58 pm

  36. Dave already addresses that. Cashner’s velocity went up 2.5 MPH during that time.

    Comment by Brandon — June 28, 2012 @ 2:00 pm

  37. Let me get this straight: right below here someone is arguing that pitchers don’t progress or decline. Yet now I have someone arguing that we should ignore previous numbers because that player was worse then? And you ask me this based on an example of a hitter, when the logic discussed is on pitchers?

    And no, I don’t think we gain anything by ignoring innings. We can say that ‘recently they look kinda the same if you accept these assumptions’ while saying ‘but long-term they aren’t close to being the same’, and that would be fair. And that analysis would point towards Bauer being a better bet. But to say ‘recently they kinda look the same if you accept these assumptions’ and we’re going to weight that at 100% while weighing the pre-AA innings at 0% is nothing short of stupid.

    Comment by Marver — June 28, 2012 @ 2:02 pm

  38. Bundy’s stats haven’t been nearly as good since he moved to High A and has gone longer than just one time through the order:

    http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=605164

    Obviously still pretty damn good but not out of this world like he was earlier.

    Comment by schlomsd — June 28, 2012 @ 2:02 pm

  39. There are certainly some defensive people responding to this for whatever reason. The article isn’t declaring Bauer a bust. It is simply showing how over-hyped some of these newbies get these days and that Cashner may very well end up being the better pitcher this year. It’s not even trying to predict Cashner will be a better pitcher over the course of his career. It’s just saying calm down and don’t be surprised if the box scores in the weeks to come display Cashner as a legit pitcher that everyone slept on because they were drooling over Bauer’s uniqueness.

    Comment by the thrill — June 28, 2012 @ 2:03 pm

  40. Welcome to Reading Dave Cameron 101 – compelling statistical analysis you won’t find anywhere else, provided you can hold your nose and wade through the condescension.

    Comment by Basebull — June 28, 2012 @ 2:13 pm

  41. No one is arguing that. You’re selectively quoting their statement. Pitcher’s don’t progress is a mostly linear fashion like hitters do. That is the point he’s making. The fact that Cashner struggled from 2008-2009 is pretty much completely irrelevant because he’s clearly made a ton of progression as a pitcher since then, as evidenced by both his stats and his improved scouting reports.

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 28, 2012 @ 2:16 pm

  42. Okay, then why can’t Bauer get credited with the possibility that he’ll be better than Cashner when he’s Cashner’s age? Clearly, age isn’t irrelevant for a pitcher; it provides an opportunity to improve.

    And no, he’s not “clearly better”. Just yesterday, Dave was arguing about the folly of using 300 innings as a pitching sample to prove a pitcher differs. Today he’s using 134 Cashner innings (while ignoring his MLB lines and pre-AA lines) to make an assertion.

    That isn’t lost on me.

    Comment by Marver — June 28, 2012 @ 2:24 pm

  43. Actually, research shows pitchers start their decline earlier (23-24), then decline further around age 27…

    Comment by Dave — June 28, 2012 @ 2:50 pm

  44. Because there are outside sources (scouting reports and velocity readings) that back up the improvement in the numbers. He isn’t relying on numbers alone.

    And as people keep pointing out, age is mostly irrelevant when projecting future improvement in pitchers because they don’t progress is the more linear manner that hitters do. Some guys gain velocity, some lose velocity, some add a new pitch, etc. You can’t just assume that because Bauer is younger he has a significantly better chance of improving than Cashner does.

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 28, 2012 @ 2:51 pm

  45. you’re both wrong:

    “[Age] doesn’t matter nearly as much for pitchers as it does for hitters” doesn’t employ a fallacy, but Ccoop is right that the statement says nothing about the correlation between pitcher performance and age. In fact, as Cameron points out: Age *does* matter for pitchers. That it matters less than in hitters is irrelevant.

    Comment by rimbaud — June 28, 2012 @ 2:57 pm

  46. 2 points against Cashner that we seem to be ignoring… while Bauer has spent the whole season so far as a starter, Cashner has spent the majority of it in the bullpen. It’s not an easy transition going from the pen to the rotation – just ask flamethrower Daniel Bard. Also, Cashner was put in the pen due to concerns over his shoulder. Should we not discount him due to this? Even if he is successful, he could very well be shut down early. They’re both likely to be inconsistent… putting up big games and some stinkers as well, but I think I’d rather hitch my wagon to Bauer for the remainder of this season

    Comment by Dave — June 28, 2012 @ 2:58 pm

  47. @ rimbaud
    Uhm … he’s been repeatedly saying that age doesn’t matter for pitchers. In fact, I quoted him saying so, and he’s more strident about that than I am since I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s “irrelevant” like he did.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 3:03 pm

  48. I think that would be a mistake, especially since Cashner knows what it’s like to pitch in the major leagues and face major league hitters. Personally I’d avoid them both because high walk pitchers give me the hives.

    Comment by jdbolick — June 28, 2012 @ 3:09 pm

  49. So funny how all the little amateur prospect hounds get all pissy when one of their heroes is questioned. Bauer has some real flaws, and they’re not going to go away just because you throw a hissy fit at Dave C. for pointing them out.

    Comment by Scott — June 28, 2012 @ 3:12 pm

  50. This is actually a really interesting statement: “The point of the minors isn’t to see who puts up the best stats the quickest, it’s to develop as a player.”

    I feel like it’s a bit more than half right. On the one hand, minor league statistical results, much like ST stats, are probably more useless than useful, especially if you’re learning to pitch out of high school (in the case of guys like Walker or Bundy etc etc), learning a new pitch, etc.

    But on the other, in 2011 we saw three college pitchers drafted top 3–all reasonably close to the Show. If you look at Cameron’s article from last year about why the Ms should take a healthy Rendon (still completely defensible, btw) or why Matt Moore’s deal was smart/fair for both sides… I don’t think throwing in the condition that Bundy reached (and will likely produce) at the majors the fastest is quite as irrelevant as you indicate. Getting ML production from a top 3 pick pitcher is, surprisingly, an accomplishment for a team. In this particular instance, that Bundy (and I assume Cole supporters would disagree with this statement) might have the highest ceiling of the 3 is also worthy of mention. It’s not only that Bauer got there first, it’s that he still has a really high ceiling too.

    Gun to my head, I’d probably roll the dice with Bundy, but I can’t really fault the Pirates or Ms for wanting a mulligan on Bauer.

    Comment by cable fixer — June 28, 2012 @ 3:19 pm

  51. Andrew Cashner sucks

    Comment by Wade Miley — June 28, 2012 @ 3:38 pm

  52. But my fantasy team!

    Comment by amateur prospect hounds — June 28, 2012 @ 3:40 pm

  53. Does the fact that the AAA ballparks were Reno for Trevor Bauer and Iowa for Cashner play into the comparison? Reno’s run scoring environment is 15%+ worse, while the H factors are 8% worse (3 year factors).

    The AA ballparks they pitched in are similar.

    Comment by Park Effects — June 28, 2012 @ 3:56 pm

  54. Emotional maturity remains a fairly crucial factor, though the impact of that is up for a great deal of debate. It is also worth noting that many men grow up through the age of 23, so there is an outside shot that Bauer isn’t a finished product physically.

    I am curious to see some research on a pitcher’s age relative to the level of competition. Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks of BP consistently beat the drum of that mattering quite a bit, and it seems like Baseball America does as well (though it is scattered throughout smaller scouting reports, and may not represent any sort of group think). It also seems like a great many outlets were touting the merits of Martin Perez and Manny Banuelos due to their relative youth at every level only one year ago, though much of that has seemingly evaporated due to their struggles.

    Comment by Domenic — June 28, 2012 @ 4:02 pm

  55. Keith Law, at least, puts the chances that Cashner can stay healthy as a start near 0%.

    Comment by byron — June 28, 2012 @ 4:10 pm

  56. Dave C, did Bauer bang your mom or something? He’s like 21 give him a break

    Comment by Don Draper — June 28, 2012 @ 4:22 pm

  57. Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks also believe that Cashner won’t stick as a starter.

    Comment by Drakos — June 28, 2012 @ 5:41 pm

  58. “Does the fact that the AAA ballparks were Reno for Trevor Bauer and Iowa for Cashner play into the comparison? Reno’s run scoring environment is 15%+ worse, while the H factors are 8% worse (3 year factors).”

    And that almost all of Cashner’s innings Dave cites have been in pitcher friendly AA while half of Bauers have been in Reno.

    Comment by ValueArb — June 28, 2012 @ 8:25 pm

  59. Just picked up Cashner and he’s throwing a great game tonight. Why couldn’t I have read this yesterday

    Comment by Slamhole — June 28, 2012 @ 9:19 pm

  60. First, it’s funny to read the whining on both “sides” of this “debate” when both are fantastic prospects.

    Looking at the combined AA/AAAstats Dave used Cashner has 111 innings in AA, and only 23 innings in AAA, and that in Iowa.

    Bauer has 65 innings in AA, and 44 in AAA, and those in Reno. So comparing pitchers by a small sample size of stats, esp. when one spent over 80% of his innings in AA and almost all his innings in neutral run environments vs. one who spent over 40% of his innings not only in AAA, but in maybe the highest scoring run environment in AAA, if not all of baseball.

    That’s the real problem with this comparison.

    Comment by Valuearb — June 28, 2012 @ 10:46 pm

  61. A pretty good chance. I’d say Bundy would be #1 on most teams redraft boards whereas Bauer, Hultzen, and Cole might all be 1 in a few of them. Bauer probably more than the other three after Bundy, but I don’t think he’s #1 for more than 20% of teams. Bundy goes first for over half of them, I’d expect.

    Comment by dnc — June 28, 2012 @ 11:29 pm

  62. Nobody thinks Cashner is a long term solution in a major league rotation.
    The question is not “if”, but “when” he gets hurt.

    Comment by cs3 — June 28, 2012 @ 11:39 pm

  63. After looking the two pitchers’ performances tonight, you gotta score it Cashner 1, Bauer 0 at the moment.

    And the improved control that Cashner showed during his stretching-out in the minors definitely carried over to tonight’s start.

    Over the rest of the year, they will face similar competition (NL West) so in my opinion the edge has to go to Cashner because of slightly better control and a much better home park.

    There has got to be concern about the RP-to-SP transition though. Neftali Feliz, anyone?

    Comment by Daren M — June 29, 2012 @ 12:21 am

  64. Pitchers age does matter more than you assert Dave. Professional pitchers that are 27 are more likely to be in the majors than pitchers that are only 23.

    Most pitchers at age 23 don’t make a MLB roster and are in the minors. Most pitchers debut after 23.

    I think your claims of 23-24 and then decline apply to pitchers that break into the majors at very young ages.

    Comment by LionoftheSenate — June 29, 2012 @ 2:34 am

  65. complete bullcrap. pitcher’s peak is demonstrated to be even sooner than hitter’s peak.

    Comment by vivaelpujols — June 29, 2012 @ 3:42 am

  66. That last statement is not verified. I don’t see why we wouldn’t expect a pitchers age to matter. Obviously a player has more projection in him the younger he is.

    Comment by vivaelpujols — June 29, 2012 @ 3:49 am

  67. My goodness! A 25-year old in his fourth major-league season might be as good as a 21-year old making his debut! Wow – it’s this kind of startling, hard-hitting analysis that keeps me coming back here. I await Dave’s next article with baited breath: “Why Trevor Bauer Isn’t As Good A Pitcher As Justin Verlander”

    Comment by Jim McLennan — June 29, 2012 @ 3:57 am

  68. I’ll say what everyone’s thinking, Cameron comes off like a total dick in this article.

    Comment by Dave Cameron — June 29, 2012 @ 4:44 am

  69. My bad for posting as DC a second ago, brainfart, but my comment still stands. It’s ridiculous of him to make this post and it comes off as clearly one-sided.

    Comment by Jason — June 29, 2012 @ 4:46 am

  70. The premise of the article (hang on guys, how about a bit of love for Cashner, he could be very very good) is fine, but it decends into a bit of a Bauer Bash, which is where the well deserved flak comes from. Indeed it is almost like you wanted to write a Bauer Bash article and lucked into Cashner as a hook.

    I for one like the fact that Bauer is challenging the norm and doing things his way and backing his talent and beliefs, it may work for him, it may not, it may even be that he is successful in spite of himself down to his talent, but it’s nice to see someone zagging when most are zigging.

    And FFS not mentioning the age facter is indefensible (if you believe it is a non-factor, at least mention it and deal with it)

    What fangraphs and SABR does well is identifying the undervalued (or under hyped) and showing why they are good (i.e. Blyleven, Raines etc.. for HoF), using it to denigrate others (like Bauer here, or in the HoF cases) just undermines the good point you make originally.

    Bauer has plenty of skill and talent and at 21 it’s not unreasonable that he will make the required adjustments to get improve, and FB pitchers are not neccesarily the devil (albeit ARI is not a great fit for FB SP).

    As a side note, if Bauer and Cahsner swapped teams, their skillsets would suit the ballparks better, you want a FB pitcher in a roomy OF and a GB pitcher in a HR park.

    Comment by Paul — June 29, 2012 @ 4:58 am

  71. Nuh uh.

    Comment by Drew — June 29, 2012 @ 5:06 am

  72. I see there are a few 12 year olds on Fangraphs these days.

    Comment by Ray Guilfoyle — June 29, 2012 @ 6:23 am

  73. I really didn’t think he was bashing Bauer, so much as using him as a point of comparison for how badly Cashner’s first start as a Padre was being overlooked, even though it had the potential to be plenty noteworthy.

    As for the latter point, I will point out in the author’s defense that Cashner took a no-hitter into the seventh.

    Comment by Sour Bob — June 29, 2012 @ 10:53 am

  74. So was anyone else completely underwhelmed by Bauer and the 3 swings and misses he induced last night (1 coming against Jurrjens)? Also not a good sign that 4 of the 5 hits he gave up were off of his supposedly great offspeed stuff.

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 29, 2012 @ 11:54 am

  75. Anyone who had Gerrit Cole above Bauer on draft day last year and would change their minds based on what we’ve seen so far is on crack.

    The reason for liking Cole better than Bauer last year were his better overall stuff and his higher ceiling. The reason for liking Bauer better were his higher floor and ability to move quickly.

    Bauer has moved quickly and shown that he should be, at worst, a moderately successful pitcher with spotty control at the big league level for some time. Cole has continued to show that he has far superior raw stuff and, if given the time and coaching to polish it up, can be a dominating, front end starter.

    In other words, both guys have been exactly what their proponents said they were 13 months ago. Given that most teams liked Cole better than Bauer then, most should still like him better today.

    Comment by David — June 29, 2012 @ 12:40 pm

  76. Some shoddy defense by Upton led to a run. Let’s give him another start or two before we declare him a bust.

    Comment by Pops — June 29, 2012 @ 12:55 pm

  77. Who said he was a bust? Also what did Upton’s defense have to do with Bauer’s complete inability to get swings and misses?

    Comment by Nitram Odarp — June 29, 2012 @ 1:23 pm

  78. “Some shoddy defense by Upton led to a run”

    The ball he dropped that no other right fielder in baseball has the speed to even get a glove on?

    Comment by ValueArb — June 29, 2012 @ 1:41 pm

  79. I’m not sure where this “age is a non-factor” is coming from. I’ll happily bet you that Bauer as a 25-year old will be better than Bauer as a 21-year old – and, also, better than Cashner as a 25-year old, i.e. currently.

    Comment by Jim McLennan — June 29, 2012 @ 6:14 pm

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