For Marlins, Perception Is Now Reality

A year ago, the Marlins signed a bunch of free agents to long term contracts that were backloaded in salary and didn’t include no-trade clauses. At the time of the deals, many skeptics suggested the organization’s past history and the structure of these deals meant the entire spending spree was a mirage designed to fool the city of Miami into thinking they actually bought a competitive team with their new $500 million stadium. That once the rubber hit the road, the Marlins would just trade all these expensive players away and go back to putting a low payroll team on the field to accomplish their real goal: raking in cash while exploiting the flaws in the revenue sharing agreements for the owner’s own personal gain.

Tonight, the Marlins completed a trade with the Blue Jays that vindicates every single person who said or wrote such a thing last year. It doesn’t even matter if this was the original plan, or if this is just an audible that the organization called after things went south. There is a chance this wasn’t all pre-scripted 12 months ago, and the organization really did want to try and win with the group of players they signed. That’s now irrelevant. The fact that it looks like this was all part of a master plan concocted before Jose Reyes or Mark Buehrle signed up to play in Miami means that the Marlins not only traded away a bunch of players today, they shipped out any last remaining amount of credibility the franchise had as well.

Ken Rosenthal is right – the only option for the Marlins to ever be seen as a legitimate MLB franchise again is for Jeffrey Loria to sell the team. Loria’s reputation — already the worst of any owner in the sport — is unsalvageable now, and he’s just alienated a whole new generation of people. It’s not just the fans. There’s no serious argument to be made that any established Major League player is going to want to play in Miami if they have the option of playing somewhere else.

This isn’t even about signing future free agents. This is about being able to retain any homegrown developed star in the future, including Giancarlo Stanton. He’s under team control for another four years, but the likelihood of him taking anything this ownership group tells him seriously just went to zero. His “I’m pissed” tweet says it all; it’s a good bet he’s already informed his agent to ask for a trade or is counting down the days until he is traded to a team that actually appears interested in winning.

And if you can’t keep a 22-year-old superstar, then what’s the point of any of this? The whole point of having cheap young Major League talent is that you can get quality performance at a low cost, allowing you to redistribute the majority of your payroll to expensive veterans and build a good team around them. But if you alienate your franchise players and have lost any credibility in negotiations with free agents, then all you are left with is a bunch of minimum salary kids who aren’t good enough to win on their own.

Developing young stars through prospect accumulation is great if you actually plan on keeping them long enough to try and win. But no one thinks that’s what Jeffrey Loria is trying to do anymore. Now, he’s just the greedy bastard who ruined baseball in Montreal, only with yet another evil deed on his resume. He’s basically a cartoon villain at this point. He’s the wench who owned the Cleveland Indians in Major League, only if she also threw kittens in a wood-chipper in her spare time.

You can only claim that you’re misunderstood so many times. There is a line at which point no one has the time or energy to ever decide whether you’re trustworthy again. With the new stadium and new uniforms, Loria was able to sell the idea of a new direction for the franchise well enough to get people to trust him one more time. This trade is a betrayal of all of that. The fact that it probably makes some sense from a purely baseball standpoint doesn’t matter. You can’t trade for trust and credibility, and that’s what the Marlins will never have under Jeffrey Loria again.

As long as Loria owns the franchise, they’re going to be perceived as a minor league team. A farm system for the rest of the league. A bottom feeder whose entire existence is focused on funneling cash to the ownership.

There are probably shades of gray that are more true than that black and white picture. No one is going to care to stop and look for them, though. The idea that this was all a scam — that Jeffrey Loria just played everyone for a fool, again — is just too powerful to be overcome. As long as he’s in charge, the Marlins won’t be seen as a real Major League organization.

If Bud Selig isn’t going to stop Loria from treating the franchise like an ATM machine, then he just needs to take the franchise away from him. Once again, the league is 29 real teams and a joke. Once again, Jeffrey Loria is the guy responsible for intentionally destroying the credibility of a Major League franchise.

It’s beyond time for him to go. We can only hope Rosenthal is right, and this is a precursor to Loria putting the team up for sale. With any luck, the franchise will get new ownership in place in time to convince Stanton not to leave, and can restore some hope in the Marlins once again. As the Dodgers new ownership group has shown, it doesn’t take long to dramatically alter the image of a franchise once new management takes over. The Marlins can be a legitimate MLB franchise again.

They just won’t be one as long as Jeffrey Loria is in charge.



Print This Post



Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.


Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 10 months ago

Once was enough.

Twice is an appalling thing.

Jeffrey Loria destroyed the Expos and he has destroyed the Marlins. He needs to be banned from the sport. Clearly he cares very passionately about something, but that something is not baseball. It is baseball’s antithesis.

wily mo
Member
3 years 10 months ago

cricket?

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 10 months ago

At least Loria gave something back to Canada with this trade.

joser
Guest
joser
3 years 10 months ago

Taking from Montreal and giving back to Toronto is not really a recipe for peace or goodwill.

Terrence Phillips
Guest
Terrence Phillips
3 years 10 months ago

I’m not your buddy, pal.

Frank McCourt
Guest
Frank McCourt
3 years 10 months ago

Jeffrey Loria is a terrible owner.

Scott Ferris
Guest
Scott Ferris
3 years 10 months ago

How’s the wife, Frank?

Fred Wilpon
Guest
Fred Wilpon
3 years 10 months ago

Hey there, play nice now.

Cliff
Guest
Cliff
3 years 10 months ago

Okay, so what about when they sign a bunch of new big-time free agents this off-season? Is he still a joke and a jerk?

I mean they sign a bunch of expensive free agents to long-term, back-loaded contracts, get their best and cheapest year, then sell the rest of the (bad) contracts for high-level prospects?? How is that not a huge win? Rinse and repeat a couple times and they have the best team in MLB, right?

Cidron
Member
Cidron
3 years 10 months ago

you say that as if he COULD sign a bunch of big time free agents this off season. That was one of the points of the article. If you were such a free agent, would you sign there, or another place, if the money were similar?

Matt
Guest
Matt
3 years 10 months ago

A bunch of high level prospects? They got Marsinik and a bunch of average guys. Even if all he wanted to do was dump salary, you’d think he could have gotten quite a bit more bang for his buck in the form of at least one top 30 prospect?

wobatus
Guest
wobatus
3 years 10 months ago

Well, didn’t Reyes and Buehrle know their contracts were back-end loaded and they didn’t have no-trade clauses? I think we can assume they thought the team was going all-in for 2012, but that if the team collapsed (which didn’t seem that likely at the time, I suppose) they might be dealt. If they wanted no-trade clauses they would have taken less money elsewhere. They didn’t.

Gomez
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

One thing worth noting is that these players are getting paid their full contracts no matter what. Yes, many players don’t like rooting somewhere and then getting dealt during their contract to a place they might not want to play. But I would surmise that many understand the nature of the business and simply want a competitive place to play ball and to get paid a ton of money to do it. Are we assured that no one would take a massive contract to play for the Marlins just because they’re sure they’ll get dealt at some point?

GMH
Guest
GMH
3 years 10 months ago

Yes, the Expos had such an amazing run in the 30 years before Loria purchased the team. One postseason appearance, and that was only due to the insanity of MLB for dividing a strike-shortened season into halves. And then Rick Fucking Monday.

Your anger should be directed at Bud Selig and John Henry. Loria is their creation, brought to fruition by Selig’s evil plan to contract Montreal and Minnesota, presumably because there was room for only one “M” team in Selig’s universe.

Brewers
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

What the hell are you talking about?

Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 10 months ago

Wow, I’m glad that post makes sense this morning. I may or may not have been quite intoxicated.

chuckb
Member
chuckb
3 years 10 months ago

From your name, we assume that’s true all the time. You got pluses anyway, or perhaps because of it.

Bip
Guest
Bip
3 years 10 months ago

Baseball is probably the one thing you can write about as lucidly drunk as sober.

Justin Smoaked Cheese
Guest
Justin Smoaked Cheese
3 years 10 months ago

Are you well-beered because you are drunk as skunk? Or you have been drinking only the finest beers? Sam Adams is Crap btw

Pinstripe Wizard
Member
Pinstripe Wizard
3 years 10 months ago

All Sam Adams or just Boston Lager?

Justin Smoaked Cheese
Guest
Justin Smoaked Cheese
3 years 10 months ago

Definitely start with those awful commercials that ruin MLB network shows. As a proud west coast beer lover, I don’t want to hear about Sams “special” beers.

Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 10 months ago

I regret to inform you gents that last night it was a bottle of shiraz.

However I should like to think that my well-beeredness is attributable to both quality and quantity.

Ben
Guest
Ben
3 years 10 months ago

For a session beer, I think Sam Adams does the trick quite nicely.

Joe R
Guest
Joe R
3 years 10 months ago

Loria is proof of what is wrong with two things.
1) MLB’s revenue sharing policy: This is a problem with American sports in general, but it’s particularly evident in MLB. While people whine and complain about how much teams like the Yankees spend, they spend it because they have it to spend. MLB doesn’t exist, or at least not in its current form, without prestigious franchises like the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox. What good does it do for the league to make these teams fund the operations of small franchises that no one cares to go see? Maybe Miami should be a great market for MLB, but that shouldn’t be an open invite to just funnel money to whatever location the league is desperate to get a base in.

2) Taxpayer funded stadiums: It should be a huge red flag when a man worth half a billion dollars cries that he “needs” the city to build him a stadium to lease. Politicians simply are not too bright, hence their attraction to jobs where they can only can be fired once every 2 years, and seem to love being sucked into ponying up for these single-use stadiums. This is ridiculous in its own right, given how much tax revenue has to be sucked out of the local economy to build it, but it becomes even worse when the team is already located in the city (so the whole “it’ll develop the area” argument becomes totally moot because it’ll just transfer what was business around Sun Life Stadium in the summer to the area around Marlins Park). He got his park, he got his deal, and now he can kick back and watch his bank account grow. After all, it’s not his worthless monstrosity of a ballpark, it’s Miami-Dade County’s.

Basically, Loria has gamed the American system of sports (a very protectionist system) to maximize his own income w/ little risk. This is exactly why I advocate a promotion/relegation system to be implemented in American sports; if guys like Loria decided to not spend and for his team to be bad, his team would be nowhere near the top flight of the sport. Obviously the EPL isn’t exactly the perfect model of financial sanity (as it has ownership w/ the exact opposite problem that the Marlins have), but terrible owners like Jeff Loria, Donald Sterling in the NBA, Frank McCourt, etc, simply do not last long.

Peter Gentleman
Guest
Peter Gentleman
3 years 10 months ago

By “twice” I assume you mean when he signed Carlos Delgado with the promise of making the team good and then traded him after a year, just like he did now.

People forgot about that. They’ll forget again about this.

Ben
Guest
Ben
3 years 10 months ago

The current ownership signed a contract with the city of miami, prior to building the stadium, locking them in as the owners for the next 10 years.

The City of Miami
Guest
The City of Miami
3 years 10 months ago

We’re willing to reconsider this clause in the contract, however.

Page
Guest
Page
3 years 10 months ago

They aren’t necessarily locked in. Loria can sell, it’s just that part of the profit would go to the city. It doesn’t make sense for him to sell anytime in the next 10 years, but it’s not like he can’t.

Ron
Guest
Ron
3 years 10 months ago

Contracts can be changed. I bet the city is concerned with rent being paid and the team staying in town. A new owner would would bring more fans to the park including out of town fans would would contribute further to the economy. As long as the team stays and pays rent (if they do) the city probably has an interest in attendence. I can’t see how the limited fan base can continue to support Loria.
On a side note one of my good friends was a Marlin fan from Orlando until last year when they changed the name. He said they were no longer Florida’s team and instead has become a Rays fan.

chuckb
Member
chuckb
3 years 10 months ago

I think it’s more correct to say that the current ownership signed a contract ON the city of Miami.

Ozzie Guillen
Guest
Ozzie Guillen
3 years 10 months ago

Vindicated.

Schide
Guest
Schide
3 years 10 months ago

At least the Marlins got Jeff Mathis.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 10 months ago

Marlins payroll just went from $118 million to $12.

schlomsd
Member
schlomsd
3 years 10 months ago

According to Cots it looks like it’s closer to $24m – although espn is reporting that it’s $20m.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 10 months ago

I meant twelve dollars!

wily mo
Member
3 years 10 months ago

this trade actually killed cot’s for a little while, it was kind of funny. they put a “maintenance” placeholder page up with just the reyes, johnson and buehrle contracts

Art Sold By Loria
Guest
Art Sold By Loria
3 years 10 months ago

Hah, that must have happened after I tried the site and got nothing at all. Even Google’s cached version was shady… had to use the “text only” one.

Former Expos fan
Guest
Former Expos fan
3 years 10 months ago

I don’t really need to say anything, do I?

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

As another former Expos fan I’m still extremely bitter. Loria has been gaming the system for way too long its time for him to go.

chuckb
Member
chuckb
3 years 10 months ago

So, how are things, Jonah?

Jeffrey Loria
Guest
Jeffrey Loria
3 years 10 months ago

Dave, we are building for season 3027.

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 10 months ago

All seven Marlins fans will be outraged to hear this.

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 10 months ago

Giancarlo Stanton traded to Seattle for Chone Figgins.

Raul
Guest
Raul
3 years 10 months ago

This actually makes no sense because Chone Figgings has a terribly bloated contract. Nice try, though. Er, not really.

Timothy
Guest
Timothy
3 years 10 months ago

Raul is either trolling the troll or just stupid. Either way he should leave.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 10 months ago

Fuck you Jeffrey Loria.

DexterMorgan
Guest
DexterMorgan
3 years 10 months ago

Seems like I forgot somebody in Miami… sorry Marlins’ fans

Ozzie Guillen
Guest
Ozzie Guillen
3 years 10 months ago

Fidel Castro would never allow something like this.

Andre the Angels Fan
Guest
Andre the Angels Fan
3 years 10 months ago

“Like” of the year.

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 10 months ago

So Toronto just bought Miami.

Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 10 months ago

The irony is that according to friends who live in Florida, half the best property there – all the waterfront mansions and so forth – is now owned by filthy rich Canadians who desire a winter home.

Aidan
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

Who’d thunk the two biggest trades of the century involve Nick Punto and Jeff Mathis

Ian
Guest
Ian
3 years 10 months ago

Mike Scioscia?

Jim Eisenreich
Guest
Jim Eisenreich
3 years 10 months ago

I had a pretty good idea…

yolo
Guest
yolo
3 years 10 months ago

I’m pretty sure too that this is preparing for a sale. Otherwise they would be a little more subtle here, I think they saw the 2 billion dollars that the dodgers made, saw the empty seats in a new stadium and saw their chance to cash in (or out in this case)

GMH
Guest
GMH
3 years 10 months ago

Why on earth would Loria sell? He’s making it rain with the new stadium revenues. He has his own mint. The dude should run for President. His track record as a business man is substantially better than the man who just received over 59 million votes. And though he may be the devil incarnate, I don’t think Jeffrey Loria ever strapped the family dog to the roof of his car. That fact alone is good for another two million votes.

President Loria
Guest
President Loria
3 years 10 months ago

I’ve just traded the Navy to Canada for a case of Crown Royal and some maple syrup.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Loria is basically Romney. We didn’t vote in Romney because most people understand the balanced scorecard, not funneling money to the rich so it can trickle (very slowly) down.

wily mo
Member
3 years 10 months ago

all this doom and gloom. he’s just trying to make it up to canada. i think it’s a nice gesture

wily mo
Member
3 years 10 months ago

for the record i posted this five minutes before that thunder-stealer rippers and his +111 used the reply feature to undercut me up at the top of the page. pretty bitter right now

philosofool
Member
Member
philosofool
3 years 10 months ago

Thank you for this. It was straight to the point and unrelenting. To argue against these conclusions is impossible. Loria is using the city of Miami for millions of dollars and it is nothing less than a small scale version of Enron — except that tax payers are forced to submit to his fraud.

Old School
Guest
Old School
3 years 10 months ago

Just remember that the Marlins used to have the best player in MLB: Miguel Cabrera.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 10 months ago

Mike Trout never played for the Marlins.

schlomsd
Member
schlomsd
3 years 10 months ago

And they still might have the best player in baseball.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

Hey man Jeff Mathis is good, but best player in baseball?

Anon21
Guest
Anon21
3 years 10 months ago

Stanton? No.

Beasy Bee
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

Hot Lettuce!

Canard
Guest
Canard
3 years 10 months ago

Alex Anthopoulous was born in Montreal.

Just thought I’d leave that little tidbit right here.

schlomsd
Member
schlomsd
3 years 10 months ago

If they aren’t planning on selling than does that mean that Giancarlo Stanton is available? I wonder what kind of package it would take to pry him away? If I were the Padres I’d trade my top 5 prospects for him, or pretty much anyone on the team.

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 10 months ago

This has to be the most lopsided trade in history in regards to WAR.

Babe Ruth
Guest
Babe Ruth
3 years 10 months ago

What?

Anonymous
Guest
Anonymous
3 years 10 months ago

The AL East is going to be very interesting to follow next year!

brown
Guest
brown
3 years 10 months ago

Terrific take.

Amazing how consistently awful this walking hemmorhoid has been, not just in intensity but in kind.

Blame the Florida legislators who allowed this to happen, sure. Joke all you want about there not being any fans in Miami anyway. Fine. Build a time machine and blame zeitgeist for the demise of ball in Montreal, fine. There’s always blame to go around.

The one constant, though? That’d be the guy who- I barely exaggerate- I just saw a picture of his slithering self on Jeff Passan’s article from July and had to wipe the oil off my screen.

Some people just BAD.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 10 months ago

I support any trade that decreases the Yankees and Red Sox chances of winning the AL East.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Jeff Loria to the Yankees for cano? Imagine how quickly Loria could make a ton of money.

Heath Bell
Guest
Heath Bell
3 years 10 months ago

But…. but… I love Canada! What am I Alex? Chopped liver? You could have had me for free!

Brandon Lyon
Guest
Brandon Lyon
3 years 10 months ago

This town ain’t big enough for the two of us.

chuckb
Member
chuckb
3 years 10 months ago

You’re a free agent. Are you planning on returning to Toronto?

LTG
Guest
LTG
3 years 10 months ago

So, if I were planning to sell the team I wouldn’t trade away assets and decrease its value to the buyer. I would try to sell the team intact and then let someone else either try to win with it or Gordon-Gekko it.

Ron
Guest
Ron
3 years 10 months ago

The new owners would probably not want to buy into long term commitments. Those would be taken against the value of the team. A new owner would probably want to build a team with his/her type of players.

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 10 months ago

Giancarlo Stanton 2013 ZIPS projections: 42R, 42 HR & 42 RBI.

RationalSportsFan
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

400 IBB.

Bryce Harper
Guest
Bryce Harper
3 years 10 months ago

Clown trade bro.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

Clown reference bro. Seriously, this whole clown thing is a bit over done.

Tom
Guest
Tom
3 years 10 months ago

whatever it’s fine

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

Meh, I don’t want to seem negative, but its everywhere on baseball sites. But to each their own I guess.

Schuxu
Guest
Schuxu
3 years 10 months ago

Thats why you add to it?

Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 10 months ago

I would agree, but this is clearly a clown trade. C’mon.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

Sarcasm, Schuxu, sarcasm.

chief00
Member
chief00
3 years 10 months ago

Good article. I believe Alex Anthopoulos, who hails from Montreal, cut his teeth in MLB with Jeffrey Loria’s Expos.

I’ve heard that the Jays want to trade Gary Bettman straight up for Giancarlo Stanton, in a sign-and-trade deal. I think Mr. Loria and Mr. Bettman would be great for each other: one’s a Marlin salesman, and the other’s a clown fish.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 10 months ago

Marlins try outs tomorrow.

Wish me luck.

Dan Out West
Guest
Dan Out West
3 years 10 months ago

I call dibs on 3B!

Page
Guest
Page
3 years 10 months ago

I just want a real franchise to root for. It’s so depressing when your hometown team is this dysfunctional. I cannot begin to understand how Selig and MLB could let Loria hijack two franchises and implode two Major League Baseball markets. I cannot understand how Selig can afford to let it happen. It’s just a terrible shitstorm that I hate to be caught in the middle of. I won’t spend another dime on the Marlins until Loria sells the team because it’s all I can do.

Lebron
Guest
Lebron
3 years 10 months ago

We have a Championship level team right in town…

chiefglockandhummer
Member
chiefglockandhummer
3 years 10 months ago

dude, the closest teams to you are the rays and the braves. pick one, they’re both pretty cool. or just root for the blue jays, it’d be a quick adjustment period

Joe R
Guest
Joe R
3 years 10 months ago

Braves basically owned the south until Florida got teams. Unless you happen to live in the Tampa area, that shouldn’t change.

Quality franchise w/ loyal fanbase
Crap franchise who doesn’t care about the fans

Seems like an easy choice to me.

bpdelia
Guest
bpdelia
3 years 10 months ago

both those teams are insanely far away guy. how about the franchise with a new taxpayer bought stadium just starts to behave like they give a fuck?

Ben
Guest
Ben
3 years 10 months ago

Not to be cynical, but will this trade negatively affect MLB revenues? If not, why would you expect Selig to act?

Jaack
Guest
Jaack
3 years 10 months ago

I think that the Major League comp is pretty good. Hopefully, Loria’s third team will be like the third major league, Back to the Minors.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Underrated comment

Jason
Guest
Jason
3 years 10 months ago

Absolutely disgusting. It’s insane the way that MLB lets this happen to Miami. I can’t see how Bud can see this every few years and still allow Loria to completely tear apart the teams the way he does time and time again. Still have sour grapes over ’97 for my Indians..

brad
Guest
brad
3 years 10 months ago

As a Yankees fan I’m going to pretend Miami is freeing up payroll to take A-Rod. For Stanton. And a unicorn.

A Narcissist
Guest
A Narcissist
3 years 10 months ago

I think you mean a centaur.

Matt
Guest
Matt
3 years 10 months ago

I was with you until you said “ATM Machine”. Do you use a PIN number when you use the ATM machine?

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

I severely hope this is sarcasm…

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 10 months ago

What I mean is, is this really what you took out of this article? I mean there’s nit-picky, and then there’s fangraphs readers I guess.

Eminor3rd
Member
Eminor3rd
3 years 10 months ago

Automated Teller Machine machine. Personal Identification Number number.

Bory
Guest
Bory
3 years 10 months ago

The Los Angeles Angels

Heather
Guest
Heather
3 years 10 months ago

MAC machine? That better?

Pitnick
Guest
Pitnick
3 years 10 months ago

Not really, no

Dave
Guest
Dave
3 years 10 months ago

Loria is a criminal. He basically deceived and robbed the state of Florida.

Jaack
Guest
Jaack
3 years 10 months ago

This is really the perfect set up for a Bush/Gore joke. I don’t really want to get political on a baseball blog, but damn is this a perfect set up.

AC of DC
Guest
AC of DC
3 years 10 months ago

Or a place to note that south Florida’s high population of retirees does draw a lot of con artists.

Ben
Guest
Ben
3 years 10 months ago

Jeffery Loria has done more harm to baseball than Pete Rose.

Aaron (UK)
Member
Aaron (UK)
3 years 10 months ago

This latest move won’t hurt his Hall of Fame chances.

Eminor3rd
Member
Eminor3rd
3 years 10 months ago

Yet they have more World Series wins in the past 15 years than almost every other team.

Fred
Guest
Fred
3 years 10 months ago

Which tells you how meaningless and arbitrary the world series, or the playoffs in general, can be. Regular season records and divisional pennants are a much better measure of the talent of a franchise than rings.

Todd
Guest
JDub
Guest
JDub
3 years 10 months ago

Great link. No excuse for not getting at least a package headlined by D’Arnaud.

Joe R
Guest
Joe R
3 years 10 months ago

Chris Jones killed it.

Mark
Guest
Mark
3 years 10 months ago

Good thing Bud Selig sees the big picture, like allowing stuff like this to happen but keeping the A’s from moving to San Jose.

Bhaakon
Guest
Bhaakon
3 years 10 months ago

Wolf’s strategy in Oakland was torn right out of Loria’s playbook in Montreal. I doubt it’s Bud’s motivations, but driving him into selling the A’s wouldn’t exactly be a bad outcome.

Lord Voldemort
Guest
Lord Voldemort
3 years 10 months ago

Ahh, yesss… Jeffery, I see that you’ve finally come around and seen the folly of muggle ways. By beginning with Florida, where it will be easiest to remove muggle caring about anything and everything, the first step of our plan will be a successss… Emperor Palpatine will be extremely pleasssed…

BIP
Guest
BIP
3 years 10 months ago

Jeffery Loria is a dementor. It all makes sense now.

Nathan
Guest
Nathan
3 years 10 months ago

How about we desolve the Marlins. Loria doesn’t get to sell them. The rays move into the stadium since they’ve earned it and the Astros get to stay in the NL?

Pitnick
Guest
Pitnick
3 years 10 months ago

So long as Loria takes that thing in center field with him

Jeff
Guest
Jeff
3 years 10 months ago

“He’s basically a cartoon villain at this point. He’s the wench who owned the Cleveland Indians in Major League, only if she also threw kittens in a wood-chipper in her spare time.”

Dave, your critical analysis and application of advanced statistics is unrivaled. But you’re even better when you’re just ripping on Jeffrey Loria for being a disgrace to baseball. Keep up the good work.

Drew
Guest
Drew
3 years 10 months ago

The Major League reference was great – just not sure anyone wants to see the Marlins players removing articles of clothing from a cardboard Loria cutout. But I suppose that would require them to win actual baseball games so the risk level seems pretty low here.

NRJyzr
Guest
NRJyzr
3 years 10 months ago

“just not sure anyone wants to see the Marlins players removing articles of clothing from a cardboard Loria cutout.”

Just ate, didn’t need to see that. Maybe I can convince myself you said “Lori Jeffies” instead….

chuckb
Member
chuckb
3 years 10 months ago

The difference between Loria and “the wench who owned the Cleveland Indians in Major League” is that Stanton and the 24 dwarfs who comprise the Marlins’ roster next year aren’t going to look forward to undressing Loria’s cardboard cutout in the locker room.

Joe
Guest
Joe
3 years 10 months ago

Have the Rays and Marlins switch stadiums. The Rays need a real ballpark. The Marlins need to be far away from everyone.

I’m sort of surprised people aren’t getting on Alex A too for aiding and abetting this silly video game trade. There’s taking advantage of a lopsided deal or dumb front office once in a while, but good lord… the Jays will win the AL East by being some sort of mutant flying fish. The Toronto Marlins?

Simon
Guest
Simon
3 years 10 months ago

Don’t be silly.You’re really saying that the Blue Jays GM should decline a trade because it’s too good for his team, and you would expect his employers to keep him on if he did that?

Bhaakon
Guest
Bhaakon
3 years 10 months ago

Two years from now, the Jays will probably be lamenting this deal. There’s some serious back loading on those contracts.

vivaelpujols
Guest
vivaelpujols
3 years 10 months ago

Yeahhhhh, as much as I hate Loria and find this whole thing laughable, the Marlins have averaged 80 wins per season with Loria (since 2002, I believe) and have a WS title. This makes him at least an average owner.

The Marlins won 69 games last year with the cheap years of the beurhle/reyes contracts. Johnson’s a bargain but he’s only signed for one more year and he’s looking at a big payday. Certianly not a bad move to dump those and get back full salary relief, prospects and Yunel.

Kris
Guest
Kris
3 years 10 months ago

Now that draft spending is capped with very very serious over-cap penalties, we will see how often Loria is able to have respectable win totals on shoestring budgets.

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

The World Series title in 2003 was with talent developed and acquired by the John Henery regime. That was not like the first championship where they went out and added a lot of talent the year they won.

vivaelpujols
Guest
vivaelpujols
3 years 10 months ago

The first year Loria took over they won 79 games, it wasn’t until the second year they won 91 games a WS. Doesn’t seem like a legimate argument to me.

chiefglockandhummer
Member
chiefglockandhummer
3 years 10 months ago

can you imagine actually being a marlins fan? i feel like someone i know’s mother just died or something. marlins fans: my sincere condolences

james wilson
Guest
james wilson
3 years 10 months ago

Neither evil or greed can explain this. Obviously, everybody is missing the big picture. Fidel has two billion in Spanish banks and is going to put a Cuban team in Miami before they can stick the embalming fluid in him.

Baumann
Guest
Baumann
3 years 10 months ago

There should be a Cuban team in Miami: a Mark Cuban team.

Bud Selig
Guest
Bud Selig
3 years 10 months ago

We don’t feel that Mr. Cuban is the type of owner that will uphold the integrity of our hallowed game the way it should be.

(Or some bullspit like that)

Joe
Guest
Joe
3 years 10 months ago

The suckers in all of this?

The Detroit Tigers who gave up Turner for Infante and 3 months of Sanchez.

They have to be shaking their heads now after seeing this deal – they apparently forgot to ask Miami to include some throw-ins like Josh Johnson and Jose Reyes. They also apparently didn’t do their due diligence and realize Miami really wanted a backup catcher who can’t hit to sweeten the pot. (Jeff Mathis for the win!)

iallm
Guest
iallm
3 years 10 months ago

Could be worse.

At least florida had those guys for one season.

KC hasn’t even looked at a free agent like that since walmart stole the team.

jimmy1138
Guest
jimmy1138
3 years 10 months ago

Actually it’s 28 teams, one joke and one AAA-team. At least ’till the Astros start signing some actual players.

Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 10 months ago

Okay, I heard somebody else compare the Astros to the Marlins. No. The Astros have competent ownership who care, an exceedingly talented front staff with a long-term plan for future success (albeit not present success), and a distinguished history of being good citizens of the city of Houston.

Put it this way: all the blokes the Astros traded away last year, they could have traded in one package for Jeff Mathis. They may not be a good team, but they are coming back someday, the way the Tigers and Rays and Nationals did. The Loria Marlins are never coming back. Their owner will level them again.

chuckb
Member
chuckb
3 years 10 months ago

This.

The Astros are trying to put together a genuine organization in the right way. The Marlins simply aren’t.

James
Guest
James
3 years 10 months ago

Yeah, because the Astros are just a few FA from contention.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

In 3 years, yes they will be. Houston went from having a crap MLB team with a crap farm to having a pretty good farm in a big enough market to sustain the potential free agents and extensions for said prospects.

Fred
Guest
Fred
3 years 10 months ago

Actually it’s 27 teams, one joke and two AAA teams. At least ’till the Astros and Mariners start signing some actual players.

Actually it’s 26 teams, two jokes, and two AAA teams. At least ’till the Astros and Mariners start signing some actual players, Loria sells the Marlins and the Cubs win a World Series so we never have to hear about the “lovable losers” of baseball ever again.

Actually it’s 25 teams, two jokes and three AAA teams. At least ’till the Astros and Mariners start signing some actual players, the Royals oh-so-vaunted farm system actually produces more than AAA players, Loria sells the Marlins and the Cubs win.

Actually, it’s 24 teams….

Paul
Guest
Paul
3 years 10 months ago

I really hate to play devil’s advocate here, because I was one of the people who refused to believe the push to build a winner was for real, even when they kept adding after Reyes. However…

From Loria’s perspective, can you not argue that he put all his chips on the table to draw in a new generation of fans to the brand new ballpark, that was empty right after the AS break? They just had the worst first year attendance for a new park ever. If it wasn’t for his long and sordid history, I think other owners might get receive some credit for going for it, then reversing course and building for the future when the fans didn’t come out.

Also, the notion that Jeff Loria is the worst owner in baseball is entirely debatable. The only difference between him and David Glass? In Kansas City, instead of dumping bad contracts, they actually argue that those guys have value and use them as an argument that they are spending money. At least Loria just said to his fan base that if the players he signs to big money deals don’t perform, he’ll ship them out and get players who will. Just a quick note: The Marlins, filled with all that high-priced talent, won four fewer games than the Royals. And the Royals are a really, really bad team.

Other fans from other cities will have similar attitudes about ownership. And let’s not go all bonkers about the LA Group, okay? The value of the real estate they bought is probably more than they paid for the team if they were just literally blow everything up.

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

Maimi is not a Major League Baseball market. That much is obvious and has been for some time, but the fact that fans stopped coming to the games halfway through the season had more to do with the team being not very good (compounded by the Ramirez deal in July).

Sam
Guest
Sam
3 years 10 months ago

San Juan Marlins?

Geoff Baker
Guest
Geoff Baker
3 years 10 months ago

That is an interesting way to look at it. Fans complain all the time about owners who won’t “spend what it takes” or “do what it takes to build a winner”. The natural corollary to being willing to spend what it takes to build a winner, is being willing to eat those costs and try another approach if it goes awry. Not every fanbase is hypnotized into long-term 6 or 7 year rebuilding plans.

I’d think Yankee fans would nod in approval with Loria’s approach. It’s about putting a good team on the field to win, not about who’s saving their team the most money on payroll.

vivaelpujols
Guest
vivaelpujols
3 years 10 months ago

also seperating Loria and David Glass… the Marlins have been over a .500 team several times under Loria’s regime.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Kansas City has spent a lot on the draft though. Has Miami?

one
Guest
one
3 years 10 months ago

Maybe he should fire the underachieving yes-man GM that’s been there for more than a decade instead of signing contracts every other year for a new manager.

Mike Brown (Paul Brown Stadium)
Guest
Mike Brown (Paul Brown Stadium)
3 years 10 months ago

I like the way this Loria character operates. Perhaps he, Donald Sterling, and me can form the holy trinity of suck!

Yes, he woodchips kitties, but
Guest
Yes, he woodchips kitties, but
3 years 10 months ago

he has given Miami championships. If someone offered you– the fan of the Mariners, Astros, Pirates, or the Cubs, etc.– this fairy tale trade: “I will let you win the World Series every seven years, but I will destroy everything you love and hold dear in the interim, [though you can watch prospects grow and flourish in the mean time]!” Would you take the deal? Miami is essentially running a major league club with a minor-league mindset. The interesting part is that they’ve won championships that way. It’s cynical, and it reminds us that baseball is a business even though the metaphysical goal of baseball is to make us forget business exists (much like the Truman Show), but if the team wins next year (and it might), how is this villainy? It may be that fans won’t abide, maybe playing .500 baseball with a bloated aging team is better for revenue, but Rumplestiltskin for me.

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

Loria has given Miami championships? I missed this

Fred
Guest
Fred
3 years 10 months ago

Yes, you did miss it. Loria bought the team in ’02. The Marlins got their second WS championship in ’03.

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

Well that’s not a plural for Loria and that team ’03 was built by the prior regime.

wobatus
Guest
wobatus
3 years 10 months ago

They won 87 games in 2009 and drew under 1.5 million. They had a decent stretch under Freddi Gonzalez even with the low payrolls. And he did seem to put a team together this year that had a shot on paper. He seems like a jerk and pocketed some revenue sharing money but I don’t blame him for trying to make money with the team. And he may have fleeced the taxpayers but so did the politicians who are supposed to represent their interests. And Miami voted out that mayor and voted in the county commissioner who opposed the deal.

Randy
Guest
Randy
3 years 10 months ago

Automatic Teller Machine Machine

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

ATM has another definition in the urban dictionary that seems more appropriate here

Tim
Guest
Tim
3 years 10 months ago

Given the subject matter, shouldn’t we be talking about POS machines instead?

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

What happened to that investigation into Loria and his gang defrauding the taxpayers? That didn’t get a lot of play when Loria was the toast of the town early in 2012, but now that he’s evil again I would think there could be some political momentum to throw the bums in jail.

ripperlv
Guest
ripperlv
3 years 10 months ago

Ah Florida

A beautiful place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to vote or watch a baseball game there.

Haishan
Guest
Haishan
3 years 10 months ago

Well, the Pensacola Blue Wahoos had Billy Hamilton last summer. That could be pretty fun.

Jack
Guest
Jack
3 years 10 months ago

I get the sentiment, and there is no doubt that Loria is a scummy guy and terrible owner. The team got a ridiculous deal on the stadium and tax payers are getting royally screwed.

Despite all this, isn’t this the right baseball move? You have a sub 70 win team with all these guys, what makes you think that spending a bunch of money to keep aging veterans is the way to go?

Bill
Guest
Bill
3 years 10 months ago

I agree here. Loria is a scum and should sell. Why they put the stadium where the did I’ll never understand, not a smart move, should have made room somewhere near downtown.

With that said, J.J. was only briefly an ‘ace’, he has two seasons of +5 WAR and he’ll never be a bona fide #1. Buerhle is ok, but overpaid for being ok. Reyes will probably be good, though he may struggle to be a +5 WAR player when his wheels start fading, but he seems like a gamer with a decent attitude. The rest is garbage.

I think it’s a good deal for the Marlins, call me crazy. But it’s only good for the city of Miami if Stanton can be locked up to an extension, they go out and get at least one modest free agent (Upton at 4yrs 50mil?) and maybe look to deal for a 3b, possibly taking on some salary here. If they stand pat the rest of the winter then yes, this looks bad financially speaking.

Gomez
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

It’s a good baseball move in that regard if Loria takes all this newfound payroll room and signs a bunch of good players. Sure, a lot of players want to play for a winner and signing with an empty ballclub that as-is won’t compete probably isn’t on their radar… but competitive offers can change a tune quickly. Richie Sexson, Adrian Beltre and Carlos Silva didn’t exactly want to play for a struggling Seattle Mariners team, but Bill Bavasi threw so much more money at them than anyone else that they followed the money.

There are a lot of free agents who will follow the money, and a lot of them may be good players. If Loria offers a megabucks contract that bests other offers to, say, Josh Hamilton or someone similar… will they say no just because they believe the Marlins will deal them or might not be competitive in the foreseeable future?

Anon
Guest
Anon
3 years 10 months ago

As some others have said, this salary dump would be a good move for a lot of teams. With the present strength of the NL East, now is a good time to rebuild.

However, the Marlins have recent history that makes this move awful. It drives away current and future fans. It makes signing free agents at a resonable price nearly impossible. Even if the Marlins win, players and fans don’t trust Loria.

Tom
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

Can someone speak to the tax implications for the soon-to-be ex-Marlins? They’re going from a state with no income tax to Ontario’s 12% tax bracket. Is there income tax reciprocity? Do their contracts have tax-neutral clauses?

Reyes is (to my knowledge) not a US Citizen. Does that affect his tax status uniquely from Johnson and Buehrle (native born Americans)? My guess is that the USA is a little pickier on taxing international income than the Dominican.

Anyone?

Eric Davis - 44 Magnum
Guest
Eric Davis - 44 Magnum
3 years 10 months ago

Yes, WHAT ABOUT THE TAX IMPLICATIONS FOR THE PLAYERS?!?!?!?!??!!?!??!??!??111/?!?!?!?!

Nick
Guest
Nick
3 years 10 months ago

I love the whole “nobody will sign there!” thing. I’m sorry, are Jose Reyes and Mark Buehrle no longer getting paychecks or?

Nick
Guest
Nick
3 years 10 months ago

Maybe they won’t sign without a no-trade, but please, if they cared that much about winning why sign with the Marlins in the first place.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

You’re forgetting that the catalyst for the “nobody will sign there” is what you’re talking about. I felt that was pretty clear. Loria convinced a lot of people that he wanted to win, but lied. Not even Stanton wants to be there.

Gomez
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

Keep in mind the Marlins dealt key players of a ballclub that lost more than 90 games, players who are aging and likely will decline in the coming years. If Loria wanted to win, how would keeping together a fading, aging ballclub after a losing season illustrate that?

rockymountainhigh
Guest
rockymountainhigh
3 years 10 months ago

As a Rockies fan, I take issue with the statement “29 real teams and a joke.”

Choo
Member
3 years 10 months ago

This is just a natural transmutation of the baseball species based on the actions of the Dodgers.

Chummy Z
Guest
Chummy Z
3 years 10 months ago

Oooh, looks like we get a new cast for The Franchise next year! I can’t wait!

DrBGiantsfan
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

Let’s see. The Marlins sign a bunch of overpriced and overrated free agents to heavily backloaded deals, insist on no no-trade clauses, then flip them for a boatload of prospects before they become expensive. If Billy Beane pulled this off, it would be hailed as the next frontier in Moneyball!

In fact, Billy Beane pretty much did this last year except he flipped players he had traded for in the past. Now he’s Executive of the Year!

Squish the Fish
Guest
Squish the Fish
3 years 10 months ago

If Beane got the taxpayers to build him a stadium on the promise that he would invest in the team and then cut payroll to the lowest in MLB by getting rid of 4 of his 5 best players so that he could make room for B-C level prospects he would get killed. The Marlins did not rebuild with this move. There is nobody they got back who projects to be more than a decent MLB player

Phrozen
Guest
Phrozen
3 years 10 months ago

A “boatload” of prospects? Don’t forget future MVP Jeff Mathis.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

All prospects aren’t equal either. Just because you get a bunch of prospects, doesn’t make it a good deal. This certainly doesn’t look like the haul the rangers got for tex from Atlanta.

Not_Sure
Guest
Not_Sure
3 years 10 months ago

The Marlins got a massive haul. In terms of premium relative to salary, the Marlins will win by a large margin.

Henderson Alvarez is young, with a power sinker that sits comfortably in the mid 90s. He’s also got an above average change and decent slider.

Factoring Reyes’ decline and injury risk, an argument can be made in Yunel’s favor. He’s an above average SS at the very least.

Marisnick is a monster 5 tool prospect.

Nicolino is one of the best lefty prospects in the league.

Johnson’s velocity is down and has shown his style of pitching is unsustainable.

Ignoring perception to fans, from a pure baseball standpoint, this is a great trade for Miami. I’m guessing most are severely underestimating Alvarez and Nicolino, and this trade will look great for Miami in hindsight.

Pinstripe Wizard
Member
Pinstripe Wizard
3 years 10 months ago

Saying Marisnick is a “monster 5 tool prospect” is a bit of a stretch to me. I’ve seen multiple people saying he would be a .240 hitter with 25 HR power at the ML level. Can that be a helpful piece on a team? Sure. Is that a “monster”? Not even close.

Not_Sure
Guest
Not_Sure
3 years 10 months ago

1) Right, because “experts” always predict the performance of high upside 21 year old prospects.

2) Speed translates very well, which you conveniently left out.

25 HRs, 30+ SBs with a .250 avg is most certainly a monster prospect. When your scope of young talent in the league expands beyond top 5 prospects or MVP voting, you will realize how difficult it is to develop guys that can do this, or even #4 starting pitchers.

Pinstripe Wizard
Member
Pinstripe Wizard
3 years 10 months ago

My scope of young talent is fine. I just disagreed with the word “monster.” Where I hear the term “monster” attached to a prospect, I think of an elite talent. Marisnick could quite possibly develop into a good ballplayer, but a good ballplayer and an elite ballplayer are different categories, no?

Not_Sure
Guest
Not_Sure
3 years 10 months ago

You chose to say he wasn’t great based on the expectation that YOU chose (out of your ass I might add), and explained that based on the expectation YOU chose, he would still classify as a “monster” prospect.

Great prospect doesn’t mean guaranteed elite player.

Pinstripe Wizard
Member
Pinstripe Wizard
3 years 10 months ago

He was ranked 48th by John Sickels and 67th by Baseball America coming into the season. Hulet ranked him 6th in the Toronto organization after the season. That hardly screams elite prospect to me. Again, contrary to what you seem to have inferred from my comments, I’m not saying he can’t become a big league regular. I just don’t see a whole lot of people that have him ranked as an elite prospect.

Not_Sure
Guest
Not_Sure
3 years 10 months ago

Top 100 is a monster prospect. Like I said, you need to expand your scope beyond the top 5.

Additionally, 25 HRs, .240 avg, 30 bags (YOUR expectation) is hardly a “regular”. This is a star in baseball.

(I will also note that Marisnick has been one of the youngest players in his league his entire pro career. Just to be recognized given these circumstances is impressive.)

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Also remember that roughly 2/3 of pitchers flame out for one reason or another and 50% of position players. This is based on a study of baseball America’s top 100 prospects from like 1990-2005 I believe.

Gomez
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

I think guys like Alvarez and Nicolino will help the Marlins going forward, though I don’t necessarily expect them to be great pitchers. Serviceable to decent, possibly. Alvarez right now could be a reliable SP in their rotation, with upside.

Escobar is serviceable. He’s giving me a huge Yuni Betancourt vibe at this point, a great and promising talent whose lack of commitment to excellent has worn off the shine on his status. He’s definitely better than Yuni, but he strikes me as one with a definitely finite ceiling. He’s an alright regular and that’s about it.

Nicolino still has work to do and the others are definite question marks. This was definitely a purge of superior talent by Miami, more about a salary dump than any idea that the return would serve as the core of the next great Marlins team.

Not_Sure
Guest
Not_Sure
3 years 10 months ago

Your conclusion and your supporting comments don’t match at all. It came across as:

She has brown hair. I don’t think she waxes her legs. Yes, she definitely murdered her uncle.

KCDaveInLA
Guest
KCDaveInLA
3 years 10 months ago

Something I would like to ask the field here: Has anyone of you actually met a Marlins fan before? Here in SoCal, I could probably come up with someone on my friends/acquaintances list who is a fan of every major league franchise, but I personally do not know any Marlins fans. For Chrissakes, I even found a guy wearing a Rays jersey during team sports day here at work. Marlins? Not even the skater kids who wear MLB hats for the look will pick up a Marlins hat from their local Lids.

Forget merely selling this team: move them or contract them.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Why? That’s still the same team. Why contract them? Just change ownership.

KCDaveInLA
Guest
KCDaveInLA
3 years 10 months ago

Yeah, that too…no more Loria, especially. Besides that, it just doesn’t seem to me that baseball works in Miami. It’s like the state of Florida gets their fill of baseball during spring training, then off to the beach.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Or they haven’t had a marketable team in 10 years. Attendance is mostly perception until you get to like August and people start thinking they can actually make it.

It’s a big enough market that if they win, the fans will come, but you can’t dump on the fans and you have to win with guys the fans know, or at least ones that gives the fans optimism. It seems like they’re like that with every local team. Vey fair weather.

one
Guest
one
3 years 10 months ago

There aren’t many fans because the city does not trust the team.

Padres Fan
Guest
Padres Fan
3 years 10 months ago

Wanted to give myself adequate time to think about the trade rather than act hastily. And, basically, my response is: cry me a river Marlins fans.

At least your team rewarded you with the opportunity of watching high priced players supplement your roster, albeit short-lived. At least, at the end of the day, you aren’t stuck saying “the most money our team has even spent on a new free agent is $11.5 million given to Orlando Hudson”. At least you can have firesales (since it takes multiple good players), instead of the slow purge of any reasonable star on your roster because “we can’t afford him”.

Truthfully, the Marlins basically turned money — the money they paid these players last season — into assets. The Padres never spent that money last season, and so we have no additional assets. In essence, the Marlins are better off now compared to where they were expected to be prior to signing all those free agents last season; juxtapose that against the current Padres, having done nothing in free agency (ever) to create additional assets in the future. It’s as if the Marlins created additional players on their roster out of thin air and owner willingness to increase salary for one season. We don’t even get that!

Whether or not Loria made it so future Major Leaguers would sign there or not is irrelevant when compared to the Padres. We would never entertain the idea of signing premier free agents, so what the hell is the difference between that and having no credibility from which to sign free agents in the future? Answer: nothing.

Go stare at your two World Series trophies and, while you do, cry me a river. I have no sympathy for you.

one
Guest
one
3 years 10 months ago

I would give you those two WS if you could get the city back the millions of tax dollars and the old Orange Bowl back.

I would rather have those dollars to use for local infrastructure than on a stadium. And sports isn’t bigger than unemployment and a garbage economy.

one
Guest
one
3 years 10 months ago

And please return Cameron Maybin while you’re at it.

You seem bitter.

Phantom Stranger
Guest
Phantom Stranger
3 years 10 months ago

As a fan of a different NL East team than the Marlins, I wholeheartedly approve the trade and hope Loria remains the owner in perpetuity.

Llewdor
Member
Llewdor
3 years 10 months ago

We should have known this would happen after Loria did the same thng to his first team.

The 1899 Cleveland Spiders.

Brian Williamson
Guest
Brian Williamson
3 years 10 months ago

Growing up, Expos were my second favorite team, so believe me when I say I despise Loria and this trade. But does anyone else see all the “Jays New AL East Favorites” headlines and think, “Wow, that’s messed up”?

justaguywholikesbaseball
Guest
justaguywholikesbaseball
3 years 10 months ago

Ok, I don’t like the man responsible for killing the expos, but didn’t the red sox pull off a similar trade? Sure, there was a chicken and beer thing that provided some backstory to what they were doing, but it amounted to the same thing happening here… there were arguments for and against that trade, so why are all sportswriters piling on one side of this argument only?

Again, I intensely dislike Jeff Loria and David Samson, but until someone (SEC? MLB?) tells them they can’t do what they’re doing, why wouldn’t they keep doing it? And why is there far less animosity towards Red Sox ownership?

Can you intelligent commentors explain this to me? I do not believe I am on par with any of you in terms of baseball knowledge, so please don’t leave any assumptions if you are up to it.

Mgoodman
Guest
Mgoodman
3 years 10 months ago

Major League Baseball has the legitimate right to deny this trade. If they allow this trade to completed, I consider myself an ex-baseball fan.

The ball is in your diamond Mr. Selig.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Why? It’s actually a good baseball move for the marlins and makes it harder for the yankees.

Gomez
Guest
3 years 10 months ago

If it’s actually a good baseball move, then what are people complaining about?

KCDaveInLA
Guest
KCDaveInLA
3 years 10 months ago

The impulsiveness of it all is what’s wrong with it. It’s the quickest case of Buyer’s Remorse since the last time I watched a Transformers movie at a theater.

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Gomez, mny people have said its a good baseball move. Owever, for this to be a good baseball move, the second part is spending once these prospects develop and retaining them, which no one believes Loria will do.

Mgoodman_4
Guest
Mgoodman_4
3 years 10 months ago

Yankees suck. They are going down anyways.

Jon
Guest
Jon
3 years 10 months ago

I guess I’m in the minority that I like this a lot for the Marlins. They had a bunch of overpaid players (especially considering the backloading) and got rid of them. Johnson doesn’t fall into that category, but they had to include him to get the Jays to take the other guys.

This would be a good move for them if they got NOTHING back, but they did get some value.

The Red Sox did this, and nobody complained. What’s the problem?

Antonio bananas
Guest
Antonio bananas
3 years 10 months ago

Because its only step 1. For this to be good, money must be spent on retaining the prospects once they develop and adding key free agents to fill the other voids. People trust Boston will actually try to do this.

Tom
Guest
Tom
3 years 10 months ago

I think I’m with you (especially with the backloading) – you also have the new CBA rules where there aren’t going to see a whole lot of qualifying offers and most FA’s can be signed without draft pick cost..

I know this will sound crazy, but if the standard deal analysis normally done at Fangrpahs was performed on this deal, would it be looked at as a bad trade for the Jays?

Does the surplus value the Jays are getting from these players equal/surpass the surplus value of what they gave up?

Johnson 1 yr/13.7 mil – will he be better than a 3 WAR pitcher? He posted 3.8WAR pitching pretty much a full year (31 starts), so there really is not a whole lot of surplus here. Maybe 1 win if he’s healthy? (4.5-5mil)

Buehrle 3yr/48mil – is he a 16mil/yr pitcher? This seems like negative surplus value – he would need to be put up ~9-10WAR over 3 years. He put up 9.6WAR over the last 3 and I think you have to factor in some decline. Call it 0? To put it another way – if anyone signed Buehrle on a 3/48mil deal this offseason would folks call it a good (or even fair) deal?

Reyes – 5yr/96 mil (with a 6th yr club option). This is not exactly a steal or a club friendly deal either. He’s averaged ~4WAR over the last 3 years. Factor in some decline (offset with maybe some gain with health?) and this doesn’t look like all that much surplus value either. Not sure what to call this – if you start at 4 wins and age him it’s a negative value if you start at 4.5-5 maybe there is some surplus value.

Then Buck and Bonafacio (too lazy to deal with them)

Does the surplus value these 3 (or 5) pieces offer offset the value they gave up? It may sound crazy, but I think the answer is a pretty clear “no”.

Could the money now committed to Reyes/Buehrle.Johnson be better spent on other FA’s (which would give you the added value of retaining the 7 guys they gave up)?

Would the Jays have been better off spending money on the FA market?

wpDiscuz