2010 Trade Value: Introduction
This post has been updated to once again acknowledge Bill Simmons as the originator for this series, which I adapted for MLB beginning in 2005. Credit has been given to him in every year since, but was unfortunately left out of this introduction at the time it was published. All credit for the idea goes to Bill.
They say time flies when you’re having fun, so the last year must have been a blast, because I can’t believe it’s been 12 months since I was getting lampooned for leaving Pablo Sandoval off the 2009 Trade Value series. So far, I’m okay with that decision, but it is time for us to re-evaluate and do it all over again. And so, over the next week, we’ll take a look at which 50 players in baseball have the most value to franchises besides their own. The criteria, as I stated last year, is as follows:
Essentially, the idea is to take all the information that goes into encapsulating a player’s value to an organization – his present skills, his future potential, how long he’s under club control, the expected cost of paying him over that time, and the risks involved with projecting his future performances – and figure out which players currently have the most trade value in baseball. The #1 guy wouldn’t get traded, straight up, for any other player in baseball. The #10 guy is someone who his organization would call untouchable, but if one of the nine guys above him was made available, they’d rethink that stance. You get the idea.
You can find the entire list from last summer here, and the trade value category has all of the individual posts, where we summarize the thoughts on five players at a time. We’ll follow the same format this year, running the series all week and wrapping it up next Monday with the top five.
Again, I want to emphasize that this is a post about trade value, not a ranking of player performance. How well they do on the field is obviously a significant factor, but teams don’t simply make deals based on how good a guy is right now. There are numerous factors, of which contract status is perhaps the most important. There’s a reason Cliff Lee has been traded three times in the last year, and it’s not because teams don’t want him. So, just because a player is not on this list does not mean I don’t think highly of his abilities (or that I hate the team he plays for). In fact, there are some tremendous players who didn’t make the cut. Here’s a few of the guys who just didn’t make it and a quick explanation as to why.
Carlos Gonzalez, CF, Colorado – There aren’t many guys who can play a legit center field and hit the baseball a long way, but Gonzalez brings both skills to the table. Unfortunately, the rest of the game isn’t quite as refined, and his approach at the plate is a problem. His aggressiveness can and will be used against him, and when pitchers adjust, he’ll need to as well.
Jaime Garcia, SP, St. Louis – The young LHP is having a tremendous rookie year for the Cardinals, but after posting a 70 percent ground ball rate in April, he’s become far more ordinary since. Since he doesn’t rack up that many strikeouts, he needs to either improve his command or lead the league in GB% in order to sustain his present results, and we haven’t seen that he can do either just yet. If he has another few months like his first one of the year, he’ll be on this list next year, but we need to see more.
Adrian Gonzalez, 1B, San Diego – There’s nothing wrong with Gonzalez’s skillset, but he’s a case where contracts come into play. He’s a bargain for 2011 at just $4.5 million in salary, but then he’s a free agent and he’s looking for a huge, huge paycheck. The Padres could get a lot for one year of Gonzalez, but I don’t think any of the teams who have guys on this list would swap them for the time that is left on his contract.
Joe Mauer, C, Minnesota – Another great player done in by his contract. I think he’ll end up being worth the big deal he signed with the Twins, but the fact is that there are only a couple of teams in baseball that can absorb the risk that comes along with a contract like that, and those teams wouldn’t create enough demand to drive up the price in talent to give the Twins a premium return for their star. He’s a tremendously valuable player, but he’s an expensive one, and it’s hard to see any team giving up a high quality, cheap young player while also taking on that kind of financial commitment.
Brett Anderson, SP, Oakland – As Bryan Smith will tell you, I am an Anderson fanboy. He is pretty much everything I love in a pitcher, as a lefty with good command of terrific stuff who gets both groundballs and strikeouts. The only he thing he doesn’t have is health. He’s on the DL for the second time this year with arm problems, and that is a huge red flag for any young pitcher. A healthy Anderson ranks very highly on this list, but unfortunately, a healthy Anderson doesn’t exist right now.
Who did make the cut? Come back at 5 pm for the guys who make up the #50 to #46 spots, and then we’ll do two posts a day for the rest of the week to get us up to #6. You can then have all weekend to speculate on the top 5, which will be revealed next Monday.
40
Sweeeeet… I love this series. Looking forward to it, Dave!
Yes! This was my favorite series last year.
I can admit to this point I was wrong about Sandoval. I still think he will be really good, but so far your opinion has kicked my opinion’s ass. There’s a reason you’re an expert and I’m not.
Keep up the great work.
Respect this.
And I love this series.
That guy on ESPN is going to sue you for stealing his column idea.
Great stuff. Can’t wait.
This is pretty much the Trade Value column by Bill Simmons for the NBA turned into baseball. I’m glad it’s done but probably should give some credit, particularly since the “he #1 guy wouldn’t get traded, straight up, for any other player in baseball. The #10 guy is someone who his organization would call untouchable, but if one of the nine guys above him was made available, they’d rethink that stance. ” is practically word for word from his rules as well.
Top 5? – Longoria, Heyward, Strasburg, Hanley, CSantana ??
Upton, Votto, and Rasmus top 10?
It’s not just prospect status, it’s contracts as well as how old a player is, how good they are, and how their future looks.
Justin Upton will be a top 5 because he has a great contract.
I don’t know if I’d just assume J-Up is in the top 5 at this point. The strikeouts are beginning to look like a big issue and the power seems to be regressing. Oblviously he should rate pretty highly, but if he doesn’t show serious development over the next few years, I don’t think the value is all that great, especially compared to some of the guys who won’t be arb eligible until 2013 or 2014.
You would HAVE to have Lester in top 10, if not top 5.
Young, proven ace, top LH in the game, and cheap as. There is literally no team that wouldn’t want to or be able to trade for him.
I think you would have to favour proven stars on good contracts over prospects at this point?
Look at last year with Weiters and J Upton making the list, neither will be top 10 this year.
Longoria, Lester, Pedroia should all be in the top 10.
that should have said one of the top LH in the game…
Lester is an interesting case. He’s actually someone whose value in trade would be hard to gauge because the 2014 team option in his contract voids if he finishes 1st or 2nd in a Cy Young Award vote and gets traded, though the language on Cots seems ambiguous as to whether that only applies if he finishes that high and subsequently gets traded or if its only a matter of both things happening in any order.
Alex, it is still 3 years of a proven star pitcher, cheap, and I bet if he is comfortable you could probably extend him since he is ALREADY talking about another contract extension to stay in Boston.
He isn’t that interested in free agency for making top dollar.
I didn’t say that he wasn’t valuable or even disagree with him being top 5 or 10. I was just pointing out a contract clause I found interesting. Little overprotective there?
As for him discussing an extension with the Red Sox, that’s rather irrelevant as he wouldn’t do the same for an organization he doesn’t know and it would make little sense for an acquiring team as he’s already signed relatively cheap for a few years and guaranteeing lots of years and money for pitchers isn’t all that smart. That maybe why a guy like Strasburg ends up in front of Lester (not that I agree, just saying) because if he gets hurt, you don’t have keep paying tens of millions of dollars.
Looking forward to the series, one of the reasons Fangraphs is so great
It will be very interesting to see where Strasburg ends up. Obviously has to be the highest ranked pitcher.
I think it is safe to say that Longoria will be number one.
Could Sizemore go from #10 to completely off the list?
How much does Pujols drop as he gets closer to free agency and the mega payday?
How much will Kemp and Granderson and Adam Jones and BJ Upton’s performance issues this year drop them down the list?
Can a pitcher (Strasburg) crack the top 5?
If Rasmus cracks the top 10, will La Russa stop benching him against lefties?
Do Beckett and Chamberlain fall off the list?
Does Omar Infante beat out Ryan Zimmerman and Joey Votto once again?
Is it possible to to a list of maybe the 20 worst trade values? Would this be less interesting since it is more obvious?
In order:
Not really.
Yes
Not very
I don’t expect to see any of those players except Matt Kemp on this list, especially if Carlos Gonzalez isn’t on it.
Perhaps…I’ve read criticisms of the inverted W and his mechanics in general though, so perhaps someone with a more proven track record of staying healthy like Josh Johnson or Ubaldo.
Were talking about someone who bats the pitcher 8th.
Absolutely. Chamberlain has had one too many four run outings in the bullpen, Beckett signed a huge extension is injured and struggled…so yes, they don’t get to be on the list anymore.
LULZ
Well the 20 players with the least trade value would be interesting, it’d be something like the 20 worst contracts in baseball, so the usual suspects…Carlos Zambrano would likely be one since a lot of the other “bad contracts” are given to players above replacement level. Perhaps that’d be a different series than the “20 worst trade values.” A series I’d like to see is the 20 players whose trade value took the biggest hit, so players like Joba Chamberlain, Grady Sizemore, etc…and a follow up piece on the players as to whether or not they have a chance to get some of that trade value back.
in the last FG Chat someone asked Dave Strasburg, Ubaldo, or Lincecum he said “Strasburg, and it isn’t close”
Perhaps in terms of potential, yes, but I feel that if Lincecum hadn’t suffered such a ridiculous workload things would be different. There’s also the whole “risk aversion” thing suppose Boston were to deal Dustin Pedroia, Clay Buchholz, Casey Kelly, and Ryan Kalish for one of these three pitchers…you can be damn sure they would want to make sure that the starter they acquire can consistently go 200+ on a year to year basis. Strasburg hasn’t demonstrated this yet. He has the inverted W and there are certain concerns that go with that.
For multiple players with the same name, would it be possible to link to the specific one in question?
Yes, this is a major concern
Not to jump the gun on righteous indignation but I can almost guarantee you that one for one, a lot of teams would take a 24 year old CF with an amazing arm, and .300/.349/.529 with 30HR/28SB in his last 660PA over their player on this list
He has a .256/.304/.396 line for his ML career away from Coors Field. I’m not saying he’s a bad hitter, by the way. He’s still developing, the power is nice. But 600PA is not enough to know what a player’s real talent level is and if you’re ok with using a small sample there’s a huge red flag for you right there.
Right SSS I get it however when you are dealing with a 24 year old SSS is going to be part of it. since the switch flipped in late june last year he has consistently been the same hitter.
Justin Upton has a .247/.322/.423 line on the road too what do you want to bet he is on the list? The list is about what someone would bring in trade a twenty four year old 30/30 guy with a .300 average is most likely a top 50 trade prospect
Please learn from the Pablo Sandoval debacle last year. Don’t bother arguing too vociferously for a particular young guy based on a SSS. It can turn out looking terrible 12 months later.
of course I am fine with someone’s subjective take on a list like this, so long as Franklin Gutierrez isn’t in the top 10
I like Carlos Gonzalez. He made the honorable mentions list for a reason. However, we can’t just look at his positives, but have to look at the negatives as well. The fact that his numbers have come in Coors Field will make teams wonder how well he’d play away from altitude, and his approach at the plate is not what most teams are looking for in a young hitter.
yeah the patience especially this year leaves a bit to be desired(although he now has more walks in July than any other month) that said I see him developing into a Beltran 2.0 type who could easily have several 400+ wOBA seasons.
Has anyone ever done a statistical breakdown of hitters who leave Coors and how it affects them? Holliday seems to be a pretty similar value in STL that he was in CO
I’m very excited for this! Thanks for doing this series again, Dave!
Shouldn’t Josh Johnson be ahead of Strasburg as the first pitcher? He just signed a 4 year/$39MM extension before the season making him incredibly cheap for the production he provides.
Strasburg is cheaper. He’s under team control.
Excited for this series, Dave, just like everyone above. I hope you don’t get too discouraged from the antagonists that will inevitably comment and you do the series again next year. Along with the franchise series, these posts are must-reads.
#6 Trade Value is ridiculously overrated. This site has lost all credibility.
I imagine if Dave was afraid of peoples opinion of him he would have quit writing a while back.
yet you’re still reading it
Le sigh…
Someday sarcasm will make its way known on the internet.
I think you’re being a bit harsh on Jaime. I mean his ERA/FIP/xFIP/tERA this year is 2.17/3.29/3.76/3.52 in 100 innings. That’s starting to get to be a precent decent sample, especially when there are no massive red flags in his peripherals (obviously, his ERA won’t be this good, but even the most pessimistic ERA estimator has him in the top 20 in the bigs among qualifiers). His strikeouts have been slightly above average and his walks slightly below average. When you combine that with an extreme groundballer (even with his recent “slump” he’s 4th in baseball), that’s a very good pitcher.
ZIPS projects a 4.20 ERA going forward and Oliver (THT Forecasts) projects a 3.71 ERA. If you call it even and say it’s 4 (and I think that is probably still way to pessimistic) that’s pretty damn good for a player who’s going to be cost controlled for the next 5 1/2 years. Oliver’s 6 year projection has him being worth 12.6 WAR over the next 6 years (and that comes with a very early decline phase and no real peak). I gotta think that should net him somewhere around 50 million in surplus value, accounting for loose arbitration estimates. I can’t think of many players who project to average 8 million a year in surplus value, so I’ll be referring back to this when you unveil your list.
BTW, I always like this series so I appreciate you rolling it out again and taking the beatings ;)
And those Oliver projections a pretty pessimistic. They project his peak at 133 innings and a 3.70 ERA, and never project him to top 133 innings in any year. Even with his injury history, I have to think he’ll he’ll be able to pitch more innings than that.
I think it’s more of a case that the projections haven’t quite ironed themselves out enough to say Garcia is top 50. Nothing wrong with being top 55 at this point.
I have to tip my cap to anyone who even *tries* to make a list like this. So many factors to combine into an ordinal ranking, it would take me forever. I wonder if Dave is starting from the MORP values given over at baseballprospectus.com, which try to put a total projected value on a player by year for the next few years? Even that wouldn’t encompass things, because scouting is worth something.
Why do you find it necessary to brag about being “right” about Sandoval when you don’t admit you were pretty wrong about other choices. You had Matt Wieters as the fourth most highly rated tradable player. I’m fairly confident that a GM would have traded for both Sandoval and Wieters last year and given up half their farm to do it. Look how brutal those two decisions would have looked this year. How do you feel about leaving Votto off? I think a GM would have liked to have a 4 WAR player at the break for a half a million dollars. I could keep naming poor choices but I hope you understand the point. Don’t be obnoxious and ignore mistakes that you made while patting yourself on the back for being right about another.
Were you here for the whole Pablo Sandoval thing last year? There were literally 10-20 comments in every post about how he was better than one of the guys in the current group of 5. It got ridiculous. I think the point was don’t worry to much if one guy isn’t as high as you think he should be, not Dave is infallible and should never be questioned.
I was. And I’m not giving the last 300 ABs more credibility than his first 600 ABs. It’s still too early to put Sandoval in the win column yet.
What about Clay Buchholz?
dont knock larussa for batting a pitcher eigth. there’s a fair amount of evidence that suggests this actually produces more runs than batting him ninth. and as far as i know he’s the only manager with the balls to do this. its not easy doing something different than what eeryone else is doing. rasmus has come a long way but his career wOBA is one hundred points lower versus lefties than righties so ther’e some basis.
and leave sandoval alone. there’s not really anything in his periphals that suggests he wont rebound. a .350 bapip maybe unrealistic but 320-330 makes his bat roughly twenty runs plus average defense i think were looking at a four win player.
Dave,
have you considered doing the opposite list. Top 10 most untradeable contracts. the players with the most money and least ability…
Nice Plagiarism there
give credit where credit is due–mention that it was simmons’s idea
Poaching ideas with no credit! COMEONMAN!!!
essentially you stole the trade value idea from bill simmons
Yes, Bill Simmons is the ONLY person who could have come up with this idea.
simmons!!!
Score one for plagiarism, I guess.
You’re such a hack. All you have to do is say, “I’m adapting Simmons’ idea for baseball purposes and you would have been fine.”
Simmons!!!
SHAME ON YOU! plaigerism!
*plagiarism
WOW! This is just so blatant it’s not even funny. Dude, you tried stealing Bill Simmons’ most successful column idea, used most of his rules and criteria word-for-word AND refused to dole out any credit? Pathetic.
SIMMONS
THIEF!
At least acknowledge who you stole this entire idea from. How embarrassing for you. Heads up for about 5,000 more similar comments.
Thanks for stealing my idea. You mind if I use one of your ideas for my next column (being an asshole)?
Stealing people’s work and using it word for word is generally considered unacceptable.
You no-talent hack.
Josh Freeman is the great QB to ever live.
Jaaaaaaaaash Freeman wins games!
Atta boy, while the idea is probably a fun and popular column to write. You could have said that it was Simmons’ idea, and you were just using it for baseball. I guess you just hoped that no one would notice
Right play: Recognize the creators idea, even a brief mention in the beginning paragraph.
Wrong play: Ignoring the above and ignorantly assuming it as your own.
It would’ve taken a mere sentence for this to be avoided and that was the choice made by the writer. Its a shame. This is a great site and you guys should rightfully be held to a higher standard than other lesser blogs/sites.
Oh my, only about 12 minutes since Billy’s tweet and his army is unleashed. And unfortunately, rightfully so.
Jaaaaaaaaaaassshhhhhh Freeman!!!!
have you never heard of bill simmons or are you just tring to pretend you don’t read his column so you can claim this brilliant list idea was yours.
Great column idea! Too bad you stole it from Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
Simmons blew up this spot on twitter, get ready for 1000000 “simmons!” comments.
If you were a college student you would be expelled. Ever hear of citing your sources? You should be ashamed.
Hey assholes, this guy has given Simmons credit in the past for the idea: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2009-mlb-trade-value-introduction/
Continue to lambast him if you want, but it’s clear that Dave Cameron (whoever he is) has acknowledged that the idea came from Bill and your asses were too lazy to check.
What does it matter if he said in his article in 2009 that he stole it from Simmons? He didn’t this year, and that is misrepresenting the work.
Way to steal Simmons work. Chump
Oh, hey, what an interesting and original idea. If only someone somewhere on a major website would consider doing this for basketball retroactively for the last 10 years!!
biiiiiiiiil siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmons
SIMMONS BITCH
“Hey assholes, this guy has given Simmons credit in the past for the idea:”
Then he needs to do it at the top of each article.
simmons
Hello Simmons fans.. This column has been around since last year. Makes you wonder who copied who.. Hmmm. Refreshent.ca in the bldg
Simmons has been doing the trade value column for years. So, no. It doesn’t make you wonder.
Man this site and its columns are bogus. I wouldn’t have even stooped this low. You suck dude…
Celtics! Brady! Gus Johnson! KEVIN DURANT! Basketball Jesus!
Don’t steal ideas from my biggest fan, Bill Simmons!
chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I have a boner again. lol
RETWEET! RETWEET!
“Hello Simmons fans.. This column has been around since last year. Makes you wonder who copied who.. Hmmm.”
Simmons has done his column for at least 8 years. Hmmm. Idiot
I love Josh Freeman. He wins football games. This is a stomach punch column. Go Pats.
“With the trade deadline just a few weeks away, it’s time to revisit the annual MLB Trade Value series that I’ve been doing for the last, I don’t know, four or five years. I stole the idea from Bill Simmons, who does an NBA version for ESPN.com, though my version leaves out the references to teenage soap operas and movies from 25 years ago. Sorry.”
Any chance we can get a retroactive diary of this weeks Pats/Jets game Dave??? Free Idea…run with it…
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020404
Sports Guy’s 2002 trade value column
Did 2002 come before last year?
Can I suggest some other column ideas?
I know – a “Bad Baseball GM summit!”
Or how about a “levels of baseball losing” column??
“Then he needs to do it at the top of each article.”
I disagree. He clearly has identified that he stole the idea from Simmons in his earlier work. This column does not strike me as one that is aimed at reaching out and bringing in new fans but more directed at the loyal following of this blog. Under that pretense, it would not be absurd to think that whoever reads this article will have read this guy’s 2009 column. Moreover, this specific post isn’t even this guy’s trade value column. Who is to say that when the actual column is written he doesn’t give credit to Simmons?
The Simmons legion comes on here to attack this dude for plagiarism when all they should attack him for is lack of creativity or interesting writing style. Yeah, this dude took Simmons’ idea but credited him as well. Get off his dick.
This is the actual article, it is the INTRODUCTION if you read the other posts of the actual players there is no reference to Simmons.
A lesson to be learned here:
Simmons tweets about this, and a column from 6 months ago get bombarded with comments bashing the author.
(he did a similar thing about a month ago when some guy in miami bashed him)
Well, guess what?
If Dave Cameron had tweeted something along those lines, you know what woulda happened? nothing. because the Sports Guy is a GOD.
And to whoever it was who said that he has mentioned it before:
yes he has, but he then took his time to again bash Simmons. Making a joke about his soap-opera, movie references from 25 years ago.
you sir are a HACK.
I hope Billy sues your ass.
SIMMONNNS!!!!!!!!!!!
Do any of you middle class white kids know how to read? D Cam has been doing this since LAST YEAR before NBA season started so he couldnt have copied whoever Simmons is!! Not everyone is an espn sheep. Maybe Simmons copied Dave ever think of that … Refresh ENT!
http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020404
2002. He’s done this since 2002. Who’s the sheep now?
I’m sure if I steal the most popular idea from the most popular columnist on the most popular sports website, no one will notice. Right?
May i suggest that you begin recording your own podcast? Prehaps bring in some childhood and college friends sometimes to help?
“Do any of you middle class white kids know how to read? D Cam has been doing this since LAST YEAR before NBA season started so he couldnt have copied whoever Simmons is!! Not everyone is an espn sheep. Maybe Simmons copied Dave ever think of that … Refresh ENT!”
2002 JACKASS. Simmons has done his column since 2002. Check the link above. He obviously copied Simmons.
Yo, ent3pryze and everyone else, Simmons was writing this column back in 2002, so yes he did get there first
What a joke this is. You should be ashamed
How are you willing to still have this posted? ANY CREDIBILITY YOU HAD WILL BE GONE IN MOMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe I can publish my idea for a movie with a farmboy whose dad used to be a good warrior but went over to a darker side and then ultimately reunites with the farm boy and admits his mistakes after leading an empire for many years that fights rebels who are kind of like space ninja/samurais
DAVE!!!! What did I tell you about stealing ideas????
What we could really use from you Dave is to blow up the baseball hall of fame. Use an…umm…upside down pyramid to rank the top baseball players of all time. Use the word pantheon for the top tier…that idea is gold…pure gold.
Josh take it easy….
I stole the Idea
This is like goin to the moon, saying the Americans were here first have been coming here for years but I’m gonna make some very small changes, and then come back every year and from the 2nd trip forward, cover up the american flag with ours when we take a picture
All you need to do is mention that you are adapting Simmons’ idea to baseball at the top of the article (and each article that you write in subsequent years). That would have been fine, but now you just look like a plagiarizing asshole.
Did you hope noone would notice?
good idea for a podcast guess the nfl lines with your cousin hal it will be a hit trust me
GOOD GOD, THAT’S BILL SIMMONS MUSIC!!
Anybody know where I can find some cheeseburgers round here?
Yup, these are my readers.
Jaaaaaaaaaash Freeeeeeeeeeeeman is the greatest qb in the league! RETWEET RETWEET!!
Complex litigation this is John
what a disaster!!! its not that simmons is the ONLY person to come up with this but this is just a straight up rip-off…also we should not be giving this hack any free hits on his crizznap website…im out…
A baseball draft diary????
Jacko says:
December 4, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Complex litigation this is John
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Davey!!!
I’m hungry, where the donuts at?
Simmons! I am waiting for this guys book to come out “Now I can die in piece, how some small time writer on the internet realized his dream of seeing the Giants win the World Series”
Interesting. I log into FG and I see that this post from last summer has been dug up o accuse Dave Cam of stealing the idea from some espn reporter? Are you people serious? Perhaps the ideas are similar, but I personally know that DC wrote a similar column before last season so it’s not entirely out of the question that mr espn was inspired by dave. In fact I’m willing to wager my FanGraphs premium account that that’s exacty what happened. FanGraphs has your back, Dave. We truly are the last great sports site.
go ahead and post your account password because Simmons has been doing this column since 2002. Exact phrasing is even the same.
you can eat crow now
I hope your premium account isn’t all you have cuz you’d lose it
Bill Simmons works for ESPN. He’s also named “The Sports Guy”, and he writes a column called “Sports Column”
*comical sport column
Dave Cameron twitter: http://mobile.twitter.com/d_a_cameron
Ooooooooooohhhhhhh Daaaaaavvvvve. Are you worried yet?
As much as I love Bill Simmons guys, you do realize that in his 2009 version, which is linked to about 20 times in this article, he mentions that he stole the idea.
You’re all idiots.
It’s “comical sports column” you idiot
Dear Diary,
The Red Sox are the greatest underdog franchise ever. The Boston Celtics are the greatest sports franchise ever. The New England Journal of Medicine is the greatest journal of medicine ever.
I’m obese like Della Reese
I always knew having Dave as one of the faces of sabermetrics would be a problem, but I never thought it would be because he would be stupid enough to steal from the world’s most famous sportswriter.
Nice theft from Bill Simmons.
Note to aspiring writers wanting to make a career out of writing: Do not plagiarize. When borrowing an original idea, cite the originator of said idea. The last thing a young, aspiring writer should want on his or her resume is a history of plagiraism and unoriginality.
Mr. Cameron, may I recommend “The Elements of Style” by Strunk and White?
I’ve been trying to eat a little better recently. Yesterday I ordered my Double Whopper with extra lettuce and tomato.
It’s too bad Dave, I had an array of beautiful women waiting for you and everything.
Enjoy hanging out with Arod for eternity instead! Oops, spoiler alert…
From Dave’s 2008 column:
One of the annual pieces I’ve been writing for USSMariner.com the last few years is a baseball takeoff of Bill Simmons’ Trade Value column.
He even provides the link. Now all you 20 something espn losers can leave our great site alone. I did my research on Bill Simmons. He writes and speaks like he’s the center of the universe. I bet his fantasy team is sh*t.
Now please leave.
Ok calm down Simmons fanboys. Simmons has been mailing it in for years anyway.
NO ONE PUTS BILLY IN A CORNER
When you’re that blatently taking not only his idea but his criteria and prose, you better link it again
This is true because I am god and you some guy named Trey. I have spoken.
Maybe if you stat nerds should’ve taken a journalism class in college instead of beating of to Barry Bonds’ VORP.
-Simmons
I agree, Simmons has been mailing it in for years.
Now, where’s my lunch?
Ttj Trey says:
December 4, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Interesting. I log into FG and I see that this post from last summer has been dug up o accuse Dave Cam of stealing the idea from some espn reporter? Are you people serious? Perhaps the ideas are similar, but I personally know that DC wrote a similar column before last season so it’s not entirely out of the question that mr espn was inspired by dave. In fact I’m willing to wager my FanGraphs premium account that that’s exacty what happened. FanGraphs has your back, Dave. We truly are the last great sports site.
————-
Really, Trey? Really? How many times can you change your facts and opinions in one hour? Come on now.
Bill Simmons crafted this idea, thief.
“There’s nothing new under the sun…”
The problem isn’t so much the plagiarism as the suckitude
Bill? If you’re reading this … I miss you.
Trey- He lifted an entire concept from an insanely popular column and used no creative ideas of his own. The argument that he doesn’t need to post any credit prompts head scratching at the very least: if he hadn’t gotten lazy this would have never been an issue. As it is, this column is uninspired writing by a lazy writer who neglected to cite his sources (every time you use someone’s idea you need to give them credit: plain and simple)
If he wanted to avoid this, he could have cited correctly or — I dunno… came up with his own idea?
He’s done this since 2005 and every year he’s credited Simmons. This year he unfortunately omitted it.
Take a chill pill, I love Simmons as much as anyone but this is just ridiculous.
please don’t love simmons. it just encourages him
Dave Cameron, I’m asking you, NAY, DEMANDING you take these articles down!
You, sir, are a jerk!
*blaster sound*
People are really, really, really fucking stupid. We should just blow it all up and start over.
Bill- Get over yourself. I don’t see the person that first created the power ranking idea getting pissy with every other outlet.
Also, how many lead changes were in that Eagles-Texans game last night?
http://mobile.twitter.com/sportsguy33/status/10551764847693824
There were two lead changes.
Do you hold the copyright for uninformed tweets, too?
Making a list is a lazy idea for any sports writer so it’s tough for me to call out Dave.
That being said the guy was a massive dickhead to me when I once put effort into a long refute to one of his asinine USS Mariner posts.
SO FEEL FREE TO PILE ON!
Listen you punk. I’m 57 years old and know more about baseball and fantasy sports than you and your hero Simmons. How do you draw the conclusion that I “have no balls” from a handful of comments? Imbecile. As for my FG PREMIUM account, I am one of nine (THE NINE) founding members of the premium service. We have access to insider information and early drafts of columns before they are published. We also receive in-depth charts and graphs in our email inboxes before the general public. We also take turns representing FG at MLB press conferences and media days in the preseason. If you think I’m going to give up those perks because some punk kid called me out in a comments section, you’re sadly mistaken.
lolz… I think you’re just being mocked for rushing as quickly as you did to the defense of an idea thief. I doubt anyone really wants your account but next time you bet your account, try and be right.
Thanks
I bet those underprivileged street youths know that stealing is wrong.
What a thief of simmons
fellas… he changed the article to cite Simmons. Things are all good
Changes have been made, sources have been cited and crisis has been averted. Thank you and good night.
Stay classy.
Ohhhhhhhhh Johnnnnnnnnnnny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This guy is a thief. Plagiarism is a crime.
I’ve been reading Cameron’s work for 8+ years now. He’s a sharp dude, but he takes himself and his opinions too seriously…nevertheless does pretty good work outside of this hijacked work. Whether he writes a couple lines about crediting Simmons or not, I still think it’s pretty weak. The comments by the readers right after this article was written tell the whole story — “I love this series”, “This was my favorite series last year, “I’m very excited for this! Thanks for doing this series again, Dave”
Dave just rolls on, patting himself on the back for conceptually stealing someone else’s work, taking credit for it and never making any comments about Simmons (in 2010) until it blew up in his face this year. Dave may end up writing some apology talking about how Simmons deserves all of the credit, but I think it will be less than genuine. Dave went to Macy’s in July, stole a watch, a pair of jeans and a new shirt. He’d been walking around wearing these items and feeling like a hundred bucks. Now, security tape has exploited him and he may try to graciously return the items now that he’s got blood on his hands, but its clear he never intended on returning the items unless he was caught.
It’s basically like this; Bill Simmons is The Rollings Stones, and Dave Cameron is just some crappy, unimaginative Stones cover band.
Have you completely ignored the fact that he cited Simmons every other year he’s written this piece?
Reading comprehension??
To the person (people) that is/are pretending to be Trey:
Congratulations. You’ve managed to discover how to mock someone while remaining anonymous on the Internet. I also said this above, but I’m going to add a little more to it here. To “Trey sucks,” not only did you express your distaste for Trey in an unimaginative way, but you also made the “mom’s basement” joke, which is just as imaginative as “Trey sucks.” Same goes to the person that made the “0.7 sex partners” comment. For all of you that called Dave a hack, these comments weren’t original either.
Here’s the real story. Dave has been doing this post for years, albeit not as long as Bill Simmons. For the first year ever, he didn’t credit Simmons like he should have. It was an honest mistake, and unfortunately for Dave, Simmons spotted it and pointed out the error. This could have been handled much better by both parties, as Dave could have just cited Simmons in the first place, and Simmons could have handled the matter privately instead of pointing it out to all his Twitter followers. If you disagree with me, well, then I claim that you don’t understand how to handle issues in a mature manner.
All that said, does anyone want to be my friend?
Thanks a lot for directing me to this article, Simmons. That’s 5 minutes of my life that I’ll never get back.
WHERE ARE WE AT IN SOCIETY? COME AFTER ME. I’M A MAN, DAMN IT. I’M 57! I’M NOT A KID. WRITE SOMETHING ABOUT ME.
Simmons said that “There is no honor on the Internet” and then his minions proved it.
To all the morons crying plagiarism, he didn’t steal the content, he borrowed the idea. In case you haven’t noticed, Simmons’ column is a basketball column and this is a baseball column. I’m a big fan of Simmons but him complaining about someone doing a trade value column (not exactly a groundbreaking revolutionary idea in its own right and it was prob done before Bill did it) without getting the credit he feels he deserves, is the apex of whiny bitch-dom.
You nitwits need to look up “plagiarism” in the dictionary.
And maybe not take your direction from Bill Simmons.
I would like to replay this article and take a closer look at what really happened…but alas…no replay. Thats how it should be we should protect the integrity and history of the game. Dave Cameron carry on…