A Collection of Career Batting Leaderboard Tidbits
Some interesting observations from the career leaderboards
Larry Walker (with only ~400 more plate appearances) ranks higher than Mark McGwire. Throw in defense and positional considerations and there’s a legitimate case to make that Walker was the more valuable player despite lacking the accolades and popularity of McGwire. If you consider McGwire a Hall of Famer, I think you have to include Walker as one too.
Manny Ramirez could potentially break into the top 15 over the next two seasons and should pass Billy Hamilton for 20th all-time this season. Alex Rodriguez is likely to pass Carl Yastrzemski for 24th all-time as Rodriguez essentially tails Manny.
Brian Giles will never replace Tony Gwynn as Mr. Padre, but Giles one-upped Gwynn last season by accumulating 393 career wRAA, one more than Gwynn. Speaking of misters, Ernie Banks sits two runs above Sammy Sosa.
Jay Buhner and Ray Lankford rank back-to-back. I think that is appropriate.
Dusty Baker and John Kruk rank back-to-back. I think that is appropriate.
A former Yankees first baseman and a new Yankees first baseman take slots 329 and 330 as John Mayberry and Mark Teixeira sit just shy of 200 career runs.
Albert Pujols has the chance to pass Shoeless Joe Jackson, Wade Boggs, Duke Snider, George Brett, and Reggie Jackson within the next season. Pujols needs about 60 wRAA to crack the top 50 all-time. CHONE has Pujols projected at 63 wRAA, ZiPS is about the same, and Marcels says 47. In other words; there’s a real, real good chance it happens this year.
Bill Bergen, Alfredo Griffin, Ozzie Guillen, Tommy Corcoran, and Tommy Thevenow round out the list as the worst hitters. The lesson to be taken from this is to simply not name your son Tommy.
Oh, and how’s this for fun. If Evan Longoria wants to break Babe Ruth’s all-time wRAA record, he needs to get a move on. It would take Longoria about 70 consecutive seasons of Longoria’s 2008 to reach Ruth. Longoria figures to top Ruth and celebrate a 100th birthday within the same decade.
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We are not talking about the Hal Of wRAA or even the Hall of WAR here. We are talking about the Hall of Fame. In the history of baseball Larry Walker’s fame can’t hold a candle Mark McGwire’s fame. Stats are not what matters here. What matters here is actually who impacted the history of the game them most.
If that’s the case then I expect to see Brian McNamee, Greg Anderson and Kirk Radomski on the next ballot.
These are not players. We are not talking about non players here. Your point is silly.
All right, then let’s kick out the five dozen members who weren’t elected as players. More room for Larry.
I am not making the point that there is not another section of the Hall of Fame for non players (there is). I am making the point that we are talking about the players section here so bring up non players in not relevent to this discussion and therefore is “silly”.
Your original “point” was “silly.”
so Jose Canseco belongs in the Hall of Fame?
I think you’re taking the “Fame” part a bit too literally.
Eric:
The fame of Canseso as a baseball player is no match for McGwire’s either. Canseco’s claim to fame you seem to be thinking about is all about what he did after his career was over not what he did during his career. This is hardly the case with McGwire.
MPC:
We don’t need a Hall of Fame to maintain a list of career wRAA leaders or career WAR leaders or career leaders in any other stat you wish to select. If this is all the Hall of Fame did then it would be the Hall of Fame that is “silly”.
Uh, no one’s saying it should be the Hall of wRAA. But if the Hall of Fame is for the game’s greatest players (and the fame, as someone else said, is bestowed upon the player AFTER he’s inducted), then shouldn’t stats that show how good a player was be utilized in determining who’s worthy/not worthy?
The Hall of Fame isn’t meant to honor “fame.” What the hell would the point of that be? There are many players, famous during their playing careers, that are not Hall of Fame caliber…Steve Garvey, Maury Wills, and the like. The HoF is meant to bestow fame on the greatest baseball players. Stats help us evaluate who the greatest are.
No offense, but I don’t understand why people with your point of view on baseball and statistics read Fan Graphs. I’m not trying to be a jerk, I just seriously don’t understand.
No, the Hall of Fame’s purpose is to honor those who defined excellence in the sport, regardless of whether or not they were “famous” or not.
If you want to play that card, Roger Maris = in, Edgar Martinez = out.
I’m going to be so disappointed when Edgar doesn’t make it in…
This warrants a single query: “If stats don’t matter … why are you even browsing Fangraphs?”
wRAA isn’t park-adjusted, so McGwire retains a 13.4 win edge in Batting Wins. Walker, however, has a 95 run edge in baserunning + avoiding double plays and a 150 run advantage in position-adjusted defense, both numbers courtesy of BaseballProjection.com. So, yes, there is an argument to be made.
It would be nice if the BBWA would send there voters a list of eligible players sorted by wRAA. At very least, it would help those who have forgotten about Ricky Henderson, and at most, it could instill some objectivity into the voting. Of course, I think the obvious PED users should be excluded regardless.
The HOF bestows fame on baseball’s greatest players.
Exactly. You shouldn’t get in the HOF for being famous, it should be because you were awesome at playing baseball. It sucks that the BBWA seem to think otherwise.
No, It honors the fame earned by baseball’s most historically significant players.
Then why does its motto say “Honoring Excellence”?
Seriously, stop taking the name so literally. We all have our own definition but yours couldn’t be more wrong. Here, let’s do a little experiment…
Willie Wells
George Davis
Eppa Rixey
Ray Brown
Andy Cooper
Biz Mackey
Bobby Wallace
Ray Dandridge
Jake Beckley
Pete Hill
Tommy McCarthy
Tim Keefe
Hilton Smith
Ben Taylor
Which ones are the Hall of Famers and which ones are the guys I just made up? If you can’t tell the difference then you automatically lose.
That explains why Mark McGwire got in first-ballot, and why Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are absolute locks….and why Rick Ferrell is in.
Leave it to a Giants fan to have no idea what he’s talking about… If it’s “fame” that is honored, then what about Buckner? Donnie Moore? Jim Abbott? Fidrych? Kirk Gibson? Vida Blue? Fernando Valenzuela? Tommy John? Why even have that silly 10 year rule to qualify? To claim that it is to honor “fame” is absurd and he obviously has no idea whatsoever what he is talking about. Why do people even diginify his “silly” claims with a response? Just like Octamom, if you ignore him, he will go away.
Anyways, from the HOF Mission Statement: “Honoring, by enshrinement, those individuals who had exceptional careers, and recognizing others for their significant achievements.”
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Don’t just say stuff to hear yourself speak. A real man can admit when he is wrong.
Nice to see Lance Berkman has cracked the top 100, at #95. At this point, one place behind the aforementioned Brian Giles.
giantsrainman, go to another website. or petition the Hall of Fame voters to get Mario Mendoza into the Hall.
How about those defensive numbers…I don’t often see them added up over a number of years like this. A. Jones rocks the rankings, easily outdistancing everyone else. Surprising to me is how few “up the middle” defensive players make the top of the defensive charts, and how many third basemen make it. Rolen, Beltre, Felix, Koskie, Chavez, Crede…this is quite the list of apparently top-tier defensive third basemen since 2002. Is 6 thirdbasemen in the top 30 a possible overestimation of their value, or is this just an era full of excellent fielding at that position?
Also, with Catcher receiving almost no defensive value whatsoever for fielding, does this mean the good fielders behind the plate are undervalued by these rankings, or is that made up somewhere else?
Larry Walker was a phenomenal baseball player. He not only had elite ‘tools’ but he put those tools to use in an incredible fashion.
He was injury prone and he primarily played out his career for two organizations that baseball media ignore or disregard (Montreal and Colorado) or else he would surely have ended up as a no-doubter HoF candidate rather than as an extreme long-shot.
He was a pure hitter who had patience and power. He was an amazing fielder with the best right field arm since…well, maybe since Clemente. He was a talented and intelligent base-runner.
Much like Carlos Beltran the ease with which he excelled in every aspect of the game made him easy to overlook but those who watched him play on a regular basis quickly became aware of his abilities and those who do statistical analysis of his career will come to the same conclusion – he was a phenomenal baseball player.