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	<title>Comments on: A + Replacement &gt;= B</title>
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	<description>Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Eric Seidman</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61440</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Seidman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61440</guid>
		<description>Just to discuss some of what was said here: nobody is debating that a 3-yr weighted projection would be the best way to compare two players.  That&#039;s not the point of this post, though.  The point of the post is that injury-prone pitchers have value even when they miss half of the season.  The entire point of the replacement level is for when pitchers go down with injury or miss time for other specified reasons.  The injured pitchers, even in just 17-20 starts, plus the replacement level CAN exceed the production of other healthy pitchers.  That is the point of this post, not whether or not Johnson &gt; Garland.  The Johnson vs. Garland debate is what gave me this idea, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to discuss some of what was said here: nobody is debating that a 3-yr weighted projection would be the best way to compare two players.  That&#8217;s not the point of this post, though.  The point of the post is that injury-prone pitchers have value even when they miss half of the season.  The entire point of the replacement level is for when pitchers go down with injury or miss time for other specified reasons.  The injured pitchers, even in just 17-20 starts, plus the replacement level CAN exceed the production of other healthy pitchers.  That is the point of this post, not whether or not Johnson &gt; Garland.  The Johnson vs. Garland debate is what gave me this idea, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Sky</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61390</link>
		<dc:creator>Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61390</guid>
		<description>I definitely agree a real projected is better than 2008 stats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely agree a real projected is better than 2008 stats.</p>
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		<title>By: Xeifrank</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61340</link>
		<dc:creator>Xeifrank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 22:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61340</guid>
		<description>Sky, if the WAR quoted above was league neutralized then yes you are right.  I assumed they were not.  It was not specified.  Secondly, there has been no response to any of my earlier comments regarding cherry-picking 2008 stats to compare Garland and RJ.  Don&#039;t you think a three year weighted average with age adjustments should be used when projecting future performance, instead of just what happened in 2008?  Three year 5/4/3 weighted WAR for Garland is 3.00 and for RJ it&#039;s 3.02.  Going forward with age adjustments, one would think the 40+ year old Johnson would be more likely to get worse.  Also, if you calculate WAR off of 2009 Marcels for the two players and adjust for league, Garland has more value.
vr, Xei</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sky, if the WAR quoted above was league neutralized then yes you are right.  I assumed they were not.  It was not specified.  Secondly, there has been no response to any of my earlier comments regarding cherry-picking 2008 stats to compare Garland and RJ.  Don&#8217;t you think a three year weighted average with age adjustments should be used when projecting future performance, instead of just what happened in 2008?  Three year 5/4/3 weighted WAR for Garland is 3.00 and for RJ it&#8217;s 3.02.  Going forward with age adjustments, one would think the 40+ year old Johnson would be more likely to get worse.  Also, if you calculate WAR off of 2009 Marcels for the two players and adjust for league, Garland has more value.<br />
vr, Xei</p>
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		<title>By: OsandRoayals</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61335</link>
		<dc:creator>OsandRoayals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61335</guid>
		<description>What MLB.com is reporting is that the Diamondbacks found some money after they realized they wouldn&#039;t have so many high draft picks to pay for. It could be and probably is spin to some extent but there should be some truth to it.  Not too many baseball teams go out of their way to say that they made a mistake and could have kept their franchise icon
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090129&amp;content_id=3784160&amp;vkey=news_ari&amp;fext=.jsp&amp;c_id=ari</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What MLB.com is reporting is that the Diamondbacks found some money after they realized they wouldn&#8217;t have so many high draft picks to pay for. It could be and probably is spin to some extent but there should be some truth to it.  Not too many baseball teams go out of their way to say that they made a mistake and could have kept their franchise icon<br />
<a href="http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090129&#038;content_id=3784160&#038;vkey=news_ari&#038;fext=.jsp&#038;c_id=ari" rel="nofollow">http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090129&#038;content_id=3784160&#038;vkey=news_ari&#038;fext=.jsp&#038;c_id=ari</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sky</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61321</link>
		<dc:creator>Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61321</guid>
		<description>For those interested...

When the DBs traded for Randy from the Yankees after the &#039;06 season, he was coming off a 205 IP season with an ERA of 5.00 but a FIP of 4.27.  The trade required an extension for Randy, costing the DBs $26MM for two years of service (between salary and signing bonuses according to Cot&#039;s).  2007 was going to be his age 43 season.  Obviously, he was hurt most of the year, but managed to post a good ERA and even better FIP in about 50 innings.  In 2008, he pitched 184 innings with both an ERA and FIP in the high 3.00s.

The DBs tend to be a smart franchise, and while they recognized that Randy&#039;s 2006 ERA was too high for skills, they had to realize his age was a risk.  Maybe being two years older and having a defined injury two years ago is enough to scare them away.  They don&#039;t necessarily don&#039;t want him, but not at the price he was asking.  While the Giants&#039; deal is a base of $8MM, he has something like $4 to $5MM in playing time and performance bonuses.  So if he&#039;s bad, the Giants are on the hook for $8MM.  If he&#039;s really good again, they&#039;re on the hook for $13MM.  It&#039;s not an awesome deal, but defensible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those interested&#8230;</p>
<p>When the DBs traded for Randy from the Yankees after the &#8217;06 season, he was coming off a 205 IP season with an ERA of 5.00 but a FIP of 4.27.  The trade required an extension for Randy, costing the DBs $26MM for two years of service (between salary and signing bonuses according to Cot&#8217;s).  2007 was going to be his age 43 season.  Obviously, he was hurt most of the year, but managed to post a good ERA and even better FIP in about 50 innings.  In 2008, he pitched 184 innings with both an ERA and FIP in the high 3.00s.</p>
<p>The DBs tend to be a smart franchise, and while they recognized that Randy&#8217;s 2006 ERA was too high for skills, they had to realize his age was a risk.  Maybe being two years older and having a defined injury two years ago is enough to scare them away.  They don&#8217;t necessarily don&#8217;t want him, but not at the price he was asking.  While the Giants&#8217; deal is a base of $8MM, he has something like $4 to $5MM in playing time and performance bonuses.  So if he&#8217;s bad, the Giants are on the hook for $8MM.  If he&#8217;s really good again, they&#8217;re on the hook for $13MM.  It&#8217;s not an awesome deal, but defensible.</p>
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		<title>By: Sky</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61320</link>
		<dc:creator>Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 16:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61320</guid>
		<description>With all due respect, Xei, that&#039;s wrong.

The league-adjustment is applied to past performance to put all pitchers (both in the AL and NL) on the same scale.  After that adjustment, a 3.0 WAR pitcher in the NL showed the same talent and had the same value as a 3.0 WAR pitcher in the AL.

Going forward, that 3.0 WAR pitcher might post a 3.75 ERA as a Giant or a 4.50 ERA as a Ranger, but he&#039;s still the same pitcher with the same value.  (Numbers for example only.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all due respect, Xei, that&#8217;s wrong.</p>
<p>The league-adjustment is applied to past performance to put all pitchers (both in the AL and NL) on the same scale.  After that adjustment, a 3.0 WAR pitcher in the NL showed the same talent and had the same value as a 3.0 WAR pitcher in the AL.</p>
<p>Going forward, that 3.0 WAR pitcher might post a 3.75 ERA as a Giant or a 4.50 ERA as a Ranger, but he&#8217;s still the same pitcher with the same value.  (Numbers for example only.)</p>
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		<title>By: Xeifrank</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61293</link>
		<dc:creator>Xeifrank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 05:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61293</guid>
		<description>Sky, if WAR is going to be used to make an argument, then &quot;yes&quot; you do need to take into account what league Garland and RJ pitched in.  Garland gets up to a 0.5 win jump from switching leagues.
vr, Xei</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sky, if WAR is going to be used to make an argument, then &#8220;yes&#8221; you do need to take into account what league Garland and RJ pitched in.  Garland gets up to a 0.5 win jump from switching leagues.<br />
vr, Xei</p>
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		<title>By: CJ</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61284</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 02:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61284</guid>
		<description>At Johnson&#039;s age, the probability that his performance can fall off a cliff at any time is real...it&#039;s a material risk.  For that reason, I can understand the Diamondbacks decision to look elsewhere.  I might have done it differently and taken the risk, but this isn&#039;t an irrational decision by the Diamondbacks.

I like Ben Sheets; I agree he has significant value even if he isn&#039;t likely to pitch a lot of innings.  And I think he is ideal for a team which needs a No. 2 starter to go with a proven ace.  But the Diamondbacks have great pitching in their No. 1 and 2 slots; I can understand the ideal that they want a bottom of the rotation pitcher to soak up innings and save the bullpen.  I also think that from a GM&#039;s perspective, there is some disruption costs to using a replacement pitcher for a good part of the year, often in sporadic spurts.  Setting aside how good or bad your replacement level pitcher might be, just the sheer act of moving players back and forth between the farm team and the big league team is disruptive.  Sometimes other worthwhile players have to clear waivers and be sent down in order to call up the new pitcher.  Sometimes players get stuck on the ML roster and can&#039;t be sent down because another team made a waiver claim and the player was pulled back...I have seen that happen with some frequency.  How much is it worth to avoid this disruption?  I don&#039;t know, but the value isn&#039;t zero.  It could make the difference in some cases where the gap between the injury prone candidate and the innings eater is small enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At Johnson&#8217;s age, the probability that his performance can fall off a cliff at any time is real&#8230;it&#8217;s a material risk.  For that reason, I can understand the Diamondbacks decision to look elsewhere.  I might have done it differently and taken the risk, but this isn&#8217;t an irrational decision by the Diamondbacks.</p>
<p>I like Ben Sheets; I agree he has significant value even if he isn&#8217;t likely to pitch a lot of innings.  And I think he is ideal for a team which needs a No. 2 starter to go with a proven ace.  But the Diamondbacks have great pitching in their No. 1 and 2 slots; I can understand the ideal that they want a bottom of the rotation pitcher to soak up innings and save the bullpen.  I also think that from a GM&#8217;s perspective, there is some disruption costs to using a replacement pitcher for a good part of the year, often in sporadic spurts.  Setting aside how good or bad your replacement level pitcher might be, just the sheer act of moving players back and forth between the farm team and the big league team is disruptive.  Sometimes other worthwhile players have to clear waivers and be sent down in order to call up the new pitcher.  Sometimes players get stuck on the ML roster and can&#8217;t be sent down because another team made a waiver claim and the player was pulled back&#8230;I have seen that happen with some frequency.  How much is it worth to avoid this disruption?  I don&#8217;t know, but the value isn&#8217;t zero.  It could make the difference in some cases where the gap between the injury prone candidate and the innings eater is small enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Sky</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61279</link>
		<dc:creator>Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61279</guid>
		<description>Again, change of league and park are irrelevant, except to the degree that Garland&#039;s skills can be leveraged by a park that &quot;fits him well&quot;.  But puutting a low-K pitcher in a parks that rewards balls-in-play doesn&#039;t seem smart, though.  And the DBs&#039; defense was poor last year, although they could obviously make improvements for 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, change of league and park are irrelevant, except to the degree that Garland&#8217;s skills can be leveraged by a park that &#8220;fits him well&#8221;.  But puutting a low-K pitcher in a parks that rewards balls-in-play doesn&#8217;t seem smart, though.  And the DBs&#8217; defense was poor last year, although they could obviously make improvements for 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: Sky</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-replacement-b/#comment-61277</link>
		<dc:creator>Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=2710#comment-61277</guid>
		<description>&quot;Sheets’ injury not only removes his production, but also inserts the production of his injury replacement. Often, that player will be below replacement value as the team’s long reliever, spot starter, or AAAA veteran.&quot;

This is only true of a poorly run franchise.  Replacement-level is definitely for just these purposes -- the expected performance of the guy you can find easily for the league-minimum.

Replacement-level IS the fill-in level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sheets’ injury not only removes his production, but also inserts the production of his injury replacement. Often, that player will be below replacement value as the team’s long reliever, spot starter, or AAAA veteran.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is only true of a poorly run franchise.  Replacement-level is definitely for just these purposes &#8212; the expected performance of the guy you can find easily for the league-minimum.</p>
<p>Replacement-level IS the fill-in level.</p>
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