Comments on: Best All Around Player Of 2008 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/ Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:21:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bill Baer http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43225 Bill Baer Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:03:21 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43225 Unless we're talking about the batter's eye, I fail to see how a stadium can promote strikeouts and walks. Ditto specific batted balls. Am I missing something? Unless we’re talking about the batter’s eye, I fail to see how a stadium can promote strikeouts and walks. Ditto specific batted balls. Am I missing something?

]]> By: Dave Cameron http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43148 Dave Cameron Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:53:58 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43148 Gassko's article in March <a href="http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/batted-balls-and-park-effects/" rel="nofollow">paints a different picture</a>, showing Progressive as a park that squashes home runs, triples, and singles, while promoting doubles, walks, strikeouts, and ground balls. If the Indians as a team were displaying a huge split this year, it'd be more compelling, but outside of Sizemore (and small sample guys like Choo and Cabrera), there's not this obvious shift to Progressive being hitter friendly this year. Gassko’s article in March paints a different picture, showing Progressive as a park that squashes home runs, triples, and singles, while promoting doubles, walks, strikeouts, and ground balls.

If the Indians as a team were displaying a huge split this year, it’d be more compelling, but outside of Sizemore (and small sample guys like Choo and Cabrera), there’s not this obvious shift to Progressive being hitter friendly this year.

]]> By: studes http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43147 studes Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:45:52 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43147 <i>Cleveland’s park has played as a pitcher friendly park the last few years, so I can’t agree that Sizemore should be docked because he’s performing significantly better at home than on the road.</i> Actually, it's more of a batter's park (three year park factor of 103) and even more so this year (one-year factor of 106). I agree with your general point, but a 100-point diff in BA, even in one year, warrants further analysis and begs the question. Cleveland’s park has played as a pitcher friendly park the last few years, so I can’t agree that Sizemore should be docked because he’s performing significantly better at home than on the road.

Actually, it’s more of a batter’s park (three year park factor of 103) and even more so this year (one-year factor of 106). I agree with your general point, but a 100-point diff in BA, even in one year, warrants further analysis and begs the question.

]]> By: Dave Cameron http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43138 Dave Cameron Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:51:53 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43138 Rick's right - try to ignore the concept of "most valuable" in this conversation. No one's arguing that Sizemore > Pujols, just as no one is claiming that the guy who won the decathlon is better than a sprinter. But we can acknowledge that a decathlete is better at more things than a sprinter without slighting the sprinter. Sizemore has a broader base of skills than Pujols. Pujols is better at the ones that matter most, but that doesn't matter for this discussion, because that's not what we're talking about. Rick’s right – try to ignore the concept of “most valuable” in this conversation. No one’s arguing that Sizemore > Pujols, just as no one is claiming that the guy who won the decathlon is better than a sprinter. But we can acknowledge that a decathlete is better at more things than a sprinter without slighting the sprinter.

Sizemore has a broader base of skills than Pujols. Pujols is better at the ones that matter most, but that doesn’t matter for this discussion, because that’s not what we’re talking about.

]]> By: Rick http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43136 Rick Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:44:38 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43136 Philosofool, you make a good point. However, I wonder where the problem really lies. Is it in the scouts, who have to evaluate the raw skills because that's how observation works? Or is it management who should be properly weighting the various skill assessments to form a summary valuation? When a GM goes out and cites a player's well-roundness as supporting evidence for a claim of overall value, the failure is the GMs for not accounting for the differential value of the various skills; not of the scout who assessed them. And likewise, if a scout says that "so-and-so" is the best player in baseball because he can "do it all", he should be reminded of the same. His expertise is in measuring the variables -- not working out the equations they populate. An analysis like the one above reminds me of a fantasy baseball ranking. It's certainly interesting, but it serves to answer a very specific question -- one which might not be broadly applicable. I think the purpose of this post was to identify the most well rounded player, not the one who provides the greatest amount of production. There's certainly a good bit of overlap, but they are fundamentally asking a different question. Philosofool, you make a good point. However, I wonder where the problem really lies. Is it in the scouts, who have to evaluate the raw skills because that’s how observation works? Or is it management who should be properly weighting the various skill assessments to form a summary valuation? When a GM goes out and cites a player’s well-roundness as supporting evidence for a claim of overall value, the failure is the GMs for not accounting for the differential value of the various skills; not of the scout who assessed them.

And likewise, if a scout says that “so-and-so” is the best player in baseball because he can “do it all”, he should be reminded of the same. His expertise is in measuring the variables — not working out the equations they populate.

An analysis like the one above reminds me of a fantasy baseball ranking. It’s certainly interesting, but it serves to answer a very specific question — one which might not be broadly applicable.

I think the purpose of this post was to identify the most well rounded player, not the one who provides the greatest amount of production. There’s certainly a good bit of overlap, but they are fundamentally asking a different question.

]]> By: philosofool http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43135 philosofool Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:33:08 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43135 Nothing like the conclusion that Grady Sizemore is a better player than Albert Pujols to show you that scouting is a deeply flawed art. I agree that this is the right conclusion by the "five tools" criteria, but boy does this make these criteria look dumb. But, speaking of criteria, doesn't the Sizemore conclusion kind of ignore batting average. If we're going to stick to the five tools criteria, Sizemore is a bad hitter compared with the rest. Also, when we penalize Hanley for being caught stealing, we're ignoring the fact that, according to scouts, getting caught doesn't matter if you steal a lot. In a play off situation you've got to manufacture runs! Nothing like the conclusion that Grady Sizemore is a better player than Albert Pujols to show you that scouting is a deeply flawed art. I agree that this is the right conclusion by the “five tools” criteria, but boy does this make these criteria look dumb.

But, speaking of criteria, doesn’t the Sizemore conclusion kind of ignore batting average. If we’re going to stick to the five tools criteria, Sizemore is a bad hitter compared with the rest. Also, when we penalize Hanley for being caught stealing, we’re ignoring the fact that, according to scouts, getting caught doesn’t matter if you steal a lot. In a play off situation you’ve got to manufacture runs!

]]> By: Derek Rabideau http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43131 Derek Rabideau Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:52:41 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43131 Nick Markakis needs to be considered. He is still pretty young but he has all the tools. Nick Markakis needs to be considered. He is still pretty young but he has all the tools.

]]> By: Dave Cameron http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43126 Dave Cameron Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:52:26 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43126 Cleveland's park has played as a pitcher friendly park the last few years, so I can't agree that Sizemore should be docked because he's performing significantly better at home than on the road. We'd need to have some reason to believe that the park is actually having an effect on his performance, rather than it just being random, if we were going to take any credit away from him for those hits. The platoon splits thing is a good point, though. Cleveland’s park has played as a pitcher friendly park the last few years, so I can’t agree that Sizemore should be docked because he’s performing significantly better at home than on the road. We’d need to have some reason to believe that the park is actually having an effect on his performance, rather than it just being random, if we were going to take any credit away from him for those hits.

The platoon splits thing is a good point, though.

]]> By: Superman http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43125 Superman Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:38:16 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43125 Alex Rios anyone? Alex Rios anyone?

]]> By: studes http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43117 studes Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:35:15 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/best-all-around-player-of-2008/#comment-43117 Lots of ways to get at best all-around. For instance, I'd include lefty/right splits too. An "all around" batter shouldn't have an outlandish platoon split. Something else to consider: Sizemore is hitting .322/.431/.625 at home, .221/ .326/ .397 on the road. That may just be a one-year fluke, but it would be a debit against his standing in my book. Lots of ways to get at best all-around. For instance, I’d include lefty/right splits too. An “all around” batter shouldn’t have an outlandish platoon split.

Something else to consider: Sizemore is hitting .322/.431/.625 at home, .221/ .326/ .397 on the road. That may just be a one-year fluke, but it would be a debit against his standing in my book.

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