It’s Curtains for the Giambino
The Jason Giambi Reunion Tour has officially been canceled. The last-place A’s gave the aging slugger his walking papers after he was able to scratch together a rather woeful .197/.332/.364 line. His release probably means that it is curtains for a successful, albeit tainted career.
This season has been chock full of disappointment for the A’s, who looked like contenders headed into the season. It appeared they might have won the Defensively Challenged Slugger Sweepstakes after they signed Giambi to a low risk, one-year, $5.25 million deal, which included a $4 million option with a $1.25 buyout. The contract essentially valued Giambi as a 1.2 win player — bargain basement stuff considering Giambi was worth nearly 6 WAR over his previous two healthy years, which included a 32 HR season with the Yankees just last year.
Now that it’s all but over for Giambi, where does he rank among the all-time greats? I’m not sure anyone will confuse Giambi as a future Hall of Famer considering his checkered past and also the era he played in, but for his career he was one heck of a ballplayer, even if he was quite overpaid from that colossal contract the Yankees gave him.
407 HR, 43rd all time
1319 RBI, 89th all time
.527 slugging, 52nd all time
1255 walks, 45th all time
143 Adjusted OPS+, 52nd all time
1512 runs created, 76th all time, tied with Ernie Banks and Lou Brock
.405 career on base percentage, tied for 45th all time with Bobby Abreu
.248 ISO, 32nd all time
His 52.3 wins above replacement ranks 150th overall according to Rally’s historical WAR database. That total is better than 48 players currently in the Hall right now, for what it’s worth.
Just for fun, here are some mostly meaningless historical comparisons for your enjoyment:
And another lashing of a dead horse:
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Comparing Jim Rice to Jason Giambi is just stupid.
Cause neither belong in the hall of fame you mean?
Cause Giambi was a much, much better player?
LoL, touche.
And that is stupid because?
One was a DH and/or below average defensive 1st baseman who was a known steroid user playing during a period of inflated offensive numbers. The other was an average outfielder who played during a strong offensive period, but nothing like the past 15 years. We don’t have the data to accurately rate his defense, but a lot of accounts are that he eventually became above average at playing LF in Fenway.
Neither belong in the Hall of Fame, though. But honestly why does anyone care about that place?
Really who are the accounts from? Dan Shaughnessy & Peter Gammons? Both Rice and Giambi’s value was derived solely from what they did in the batters box.
According to this (http://jim-rice.blogspot.com/), Bill James’ work on defensive win shares found that Rice’s defense was worth 35.6 Win Shares over his career, and he recieved a C+ rating from him.
Right, so James concluded that Rice was an ‘ok outfielder’. If you are an average fielder at a position at the wrong end of the defensive spectrum then doesn’t that suggest that all of your value was at the plate?
” If you are an average fielder at a position at the wrong end of the defensive spectrum then doesn’t that suggest that all of your value was at the plate?”
Well, assuming Rice was an ok fielder, it suggests that his defensive play added more value to his overall production than Giambi’s poor defense at 1st (or no defense at DH), which are both even farther on the “wrong end of the defensive spectrum” than LF.
The positional adjustment used on this sit for a LF is -7.5 and -12.5 for a first baseman. The five run difference is already half a win each year, so if Giambi is below average defensively at 1st and Rice was average or slightly above average in LF there is a 1-1.5 WAR difference between them already. Does Giambi’s offense make up for the difference–maybe, but to straight up compare them solely on wOBA is stupid. And again Giambi is a known steroid user. Sure so was another large portion of the league, but it has to be considered that they were playing in completely different eras with completely different training regiments.
It’s stupid because Giambi played in an expansion era, in the steroid era, and he, himself, took lots and lots and lots of steroids. Can’t you guys ever just look at the obvious?
We apologize for actually looking at the facts waynetolleson. If you have any factual arguments to share, go ahead…
Forget Giambi. Let’s compare Jim Rice to Albert Belle. Who wins that one? Let’s start with the basics:
Rice – 298/352/502, 373 2B, 79 3B, 382 HR, 1452 RBI, 1250 runs scored, 1 MVP, Black Ink of 33, Gray Ink of 176, HOF Monitor of 144, HOF Standards of 43.
Belle – 295/369/564, 389 2b, 21 3B, 381 HR, 1239 RBI, 974 runs scored, missed out on the MVP in ‘95 because two writers left him off the ballot completely, Black Ink of28, Gray Ink of 137, Hof Monitor of 133, HoF standards of 36.
Belle also played 4 fewer seasons than Rice; add those seasons in and many of his numbers improve, although his averages probably drop a bit. Essentially, Belle had Rice’s career just without any downward slope.
Of course, the point here is that Belle didn’t receive any support whatsoever for the Hall, while Rice is in. And you certainly can’t argue that Rice was any more useful defensively than Belle.
Again different eras, which is evident by the black and gray inks. Also I’ve never stated that I thought Rice was a HoFer. I don’t really care about the HoF.
You can’t continually cite the “different eras” argument while conveniently ignoring the home/road splits of Rice. The man’s swing was tailor-made for Fenway park.
And if you really “don’t care” about the HoF, then why defend Rice’s enshrinement so vociferously?
FWIW BP has Rice at 127 FRAR and -35 FRAA. Most of that badness came from ‘82 on, though, he was rated pretty solidly up to that point.
But refering to BP again, EqA’s:
Rice: .293
Giambi: .322
Oh yeah
Dewey > Jim Ed
Giambi is not done. No chance. Someone will sign him.
Yeah, he did mysteriously find a way to hit 32 homeruns last year, so maybe he has another resurgence left in the syringe.
Yeah, he probably forgot to juice up this year. If he had only ordered a supply of ‘roids.
I hope the Red Sox do once rosters expand to 40 players. Lord knows the Sox could use all the offensive help they can get after this weekend.
See. And it only took two weeks.
Giambi to the Hall! (?)
Low risk? Giambi had the third highest salary on the team. And that team happened to be the A’s.
If he wasn’t juiced I say he had a decent shot to make the HOF, or at least stay on the balloting for a while.
But if he wasn’t juiced he wouldn’t hit as many homers as he did.
Where Giambi ranked on the A’s payroll really has nothing to do with the risk involved in signing him.
Why not, it helps put the risk into the context of what the A’s could afford. It shows it was a bigger risk for the A’s than most other clubs, because of their low payroll. A high payroll team can afford to take multiple risks, increasing the odds that at least one of them works out, whereas a low payroll team might only be able to afford one risk like Giambi. If that risk doesn’t pan out, they’re left with nothing.
With no other real viable option in 2009, a one year contract for a guy coming off a .247/.373/.502 year is pretty good; a guy who may really hit without mortgaging the future. Just didn’t work. At all.
Beane’s still a great GM but that team needs to clean up a bit. They’ll be good in 2011 though.
Just barely though, as Mark Ellis and Bobby Crosby each only make about 0.25-0.5MM less, so its quintessentially a tie.
Great article. He truly was one hell of a hitter, especially in his prime (of course). My immediate memory is from the dog days of the 2001 season (i think) when the Yanks were in Oakland Alameda and Mike Stanton threw Giambi a nasty 3-2, 2 outs curveball with the bases loaded. Giambi hit it in the seats like he knew it was coming. Of course, those were the days of facial hair, tattoos, and hair to his shoulders. …and 100-win teams with $30 million payroll… Those were the days…
The question is, if a roided up batter hits a dinger off a roided up pitcher, is the home-run legit? I’ve yet to parse the information, and I doubt I ever will, but it’s definitely interesting to think about.
I would think not. A roided up pitcher would probably have a few greater MPH, and be able to hold that MPH deeper into games. A stronger batter hitting a faster pitch will result in a longer flight path. The hitter will have a harder time hitting a roided pitcher, which is a credit to him. But assuming both the roided and unroided pitch is squared up correctly and hit with perfect form, the faster pitch hit by the stronger player will always travel a greater distance.
“The question is, if a roided up batter hits a dinger off a roided up pitcher, is the home-run legit?”
The question, if a player does something not against the rules, is it illegitimate…?
To quote Bill James:
“The “rule” against Performance Enhancing Drugs, if
there was such a rule before 2002, by-passed all of these
gates. It was never agreed to by the players, who clearly
and absolutely have a right to participate in the process
of changing any and all rules to which they are subject.
It was not included in any of the various rule books that
define the conduct of the game from various perspectives.
There was no process for enforcing such a rule. The
punishments were draconian in theory and non-existent
in fact.”
The next question: if steroids have been in baseball since at least the early ’70’s, are the only “illegitmate” HR’s the ones of the current generation of players…?
@Richie Abernathy – If I’m not mistaken, that was during the 20 game win streak. Back when the Yankees were the only big spenders in baseball. It was a good day for smaller market teams everywhere…
You know… that may have been during the 20-game win streak. Man, that was amazing.
One area performance enhancing drugs certainly didn’t help Giambi with were his walks. Did he ever have a good eye–609 BB over a five-year span between ‘99 and ‘03.
Of course performance enhancing drugs helps with walks. If you are a great power hitter (with is likely enhanced by PEDs), pitchers are more cautious with their pitches. His walks were almost certainly increased through the use of PEDs.
Strange that the first comment was about Jim Rice and if I’m not mistaken he wasn’t mentioned at all in the post.
However, what I always find humorous is the fact that everyone discounts Jim Rice as a steroid user. I guess that’s because if anyone asks him he always says that he didn’t take them (and if there is one thing we can take for certain it’s the word of an athlete!).
It’s because Rice didn’t play in the “steroid era.”
Oh no? Read the 1969 SI article about drugs in sports, including steroids.
And if he did not use steroids, which is no more certain than any other statements about current players, there is surely enough evidence that he lived in the amphetamine era and was engaged in using that PED, as were apparently most players of the 1960s-70s.
It is possible that amphetamines have a more direct effect on a baseball player’s ability to perform at a high level than steroids do. The big difference is that while steroids were ordinarily part of a rigorous training regimen, amphetamines were the magic pills that did not require any commitment to better training, that in fact were used in place of better training.
Sorry, I should have linked to the article. Here it is:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082543/1/index.htm
In terms of comparing Giambi to these other players (particularly McCovey), would it not make more sense to use OPS+ than wOBA given that Giambi played in the more high-scoring and offensive-minded era?
Actually… the best comparison to Jim Rice is Albert Belle, only Albert Belle was better, and actually deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
Plus Giambi is better than Jim Rice. In 2000 less at bats, he had more homeruns, more doubles, and a much better OPS. He also performed in the playoffs… Jim Rice managed 2 homeruns in 71 at-bats while striking out 21 times, and only getting walked 7 times. Oddly similar to his regular season ratio of walks to k’s.
I guess Dwight Evans is the most underrated player of all time. Anywho, Giambi put up somewhat decent numbers in the postseason. Of course, he doesn’t belong in the Hall, but with Jim Rice getting in, it’s time to open the doors.
Not just Dwight Evans, but Darrell Evans, too. Different players but equally underrated. If I could pick two hall of famers…well, I guess I’d put Ron Santo in, first, but both the Evans’ were terrific players, whose only negatives were a low batting average – which was enough to keep them out of the Hall. See also: Graig Nettles.
I think the problem with putting a guy like Rice in the Hall is that now there’s no real reason to keep out the Evans duo, Santo, Belle, Kingman, Nettles, Dave Parker, Luis Gonzalez – hell, check out Gonzalez’ numbers someday and try to explain to me that Rice was the better player. All the guys I listed had better numbers than Rice, were better players (Nettles was a Gold Glove third baseman, Gonzalez was a terrific outfielder in his prime, etc.) and none of them are going to get a look.
“I’m not sure anyone will confuse Giambi as a future Hall of Famer considering his checkered past and also the era he played in…”
1)Like a not insignificant number of baseball fans (who get drowned out by the chorus of often ill informed demagogues), I don’t care a whit whether or not a player used PEDs such as steroids or amphetamines (and certainly not HGH, which Giambi used, and has no effect on performance in baseball).
2)In the era in which Giambi played, he was 43% better than than the average player. (OPS+)
So, I guess I’m “confused.”
In fact, Giambi is 8th in OPS+ among active players. And of the guys above him, I’d say all but Berkman are surefire HOF’ers. That seems like he’s put himself in some pretty HOF-worthy company.
By the way, how come very few people (Bill James aside) talk about Dick Allen as an HOF’er? His Black Ink, Gray Ink and HOF Monitor are all in line. With a 156 OPS+, he’s 19th all time. And he has far and away the highest OPS+ of any HOF-eligible modern era player not named McGwire. (To find the next closest guy from the modern era who has been retired 5+ years you need to go down to Albert Belle in 52nd place.)
I think Dick Allen is overlooked because nobody (read:reporters) liked him. He also doesn’t seem to have been much of a teammate.
Hasn’t Bill James said that he thinks Allen will get in sooner or later?
He’s by far the best non-steroid era hitter that’s not in there, no matter how much people want to scream Pete Rose.
(P.S. I love how Rose, via his hits record, gets credit for the 884 hits he had in the 80’s when he was terrible and hurt the teams he was on).
One problem with OPS+ is it’s a rate stat and doesn’t give us a feel for total production. Using an extreme example, a player with an OPS+ of 120 over 20 years is certainly more HoF worthy than a player with a career OPS+ of 120 over 5 years. Some players career OPS+ will also be affected if they hang on to the game for too long, which really shouldn’t change their candidacy at all (unless it’s in a positive way because they’re still productive).
FWIW, B:
http://www.fangraphs.com/careerleaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=1&min=1000
Between Reggie Jackson and George Brett. Pretty good company for a guy who was pretty much fried by age 32.
Jason Giambi is an outstanding young man who loves baseball. He was caught up in the steroid scandals by someone who leaked the Grand Jury testimony and readily admitted that he had taken steriods. Jason has been injured this season and tried to play through it for the good of the team. He is a team player and will be an asset to some American League team. I for one wish him the very best in his future endevors as should all of you.
What are you, his agent?
Just a thought: Why do MLB’ers get tainted for steroid use so much? How many people will remember Rodney Harrison was busted for PED’s when his name hits the Hall ballot in the NFL? Same goes for Shawne Merriman.
“Why do MLB’ers get tainted for steroid use so much?”
You mean this generation of MLB’ers specifically. Tom House admitted he used anabolic steroids in the early ’70’s (and many others were using, too, though he didn’t name any other names). The media, especially ESPN, is completely ignorant and irrational on the issue and at this point it seems the fans have just come to reflect what the media tells them. Overall the whole steroid issue has become so ridiculous it’s…hard to even describe how people can possibly think about it the way they do.
Seriously.
We know steroids are bad, but do people actually think these MLB players emerged from the strike and suddenly found these magic pills that made them really good at hitting? That stuff like this had been occuring for ages but became more noticeable as the PED’s became more sophisticated?
If you want real outrage, how about the HS coaches who turn a blind eye when their 17 year old linebacker shows up to training camp 60 lbs heavier than the season before (believe me, I’ve seen this).
“His 52.3 wins above replacement ranks 150th overall according to Rally’s historical WAR database. That total is better than 48 players currently in the Hall right now, for what it’s worth.”
There are a lot of mistakes in the Hall. I think a better question is how many eligible non-HOFers are ahead of him?
Whitaker and Grich come to mind quick.
Bill Dahlen is one of the players Cyril Morong has banged the drum for previously. 76 WAR over a 20 year career.
No surprise, Cyril also sponsors his b-r page, hah.
Another case of the awesomeness that was early player valuation. .272 lifetime BA as a SS (and a walk machine for his era), but of course it’s not a .300. Wonder how many great players will be forgotten in favor of inferior players thanks to media laziness.
I count 30 players eligible, not in the HOF, and better than Giambi. One who is very comparable is Jack Clark. Giambino’s numbers look superficially better, but they were about equal offensive forces for their times, lots of power and walks, limited defensive value.