Comments on: Holliday Vs Teixeira http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/ Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:00:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: JoeIQ http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-530210 JoeIQ Wed, 09 Feb 2011 21:29:27 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-530210 I demand a followup saying that Holliday was better all along. I demand a followup saying that Holliday was better all along.

]]> By: beau http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-118847 beau Tue, 05 Jan 2010 15:17:58 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-118847 The Cardinals are bidding against themselves at this point. I hope Albert decides to test the market. He s been with the Cardinals for his career like Roy Halladay, and should see what his true value is to MLB, he's earned that right. If Holliday doesn't win a WS after signing with the Cardinals , this should stop the comparing of him to Tex. Yankees immediately felt Tex's impact, I doubt the Cardinals are NL favorites to WIN. The.y will win the division, and fade. The Cardinals GM Mozeliak is so DESPERATE to sign Holliday, that he's missed the opportunity to beat the demon seed (Boras) at his own game, because he has no other bidder for Holliday, he could hold out for less yrs and money. Instead Losing Albert if they don't get him is the reasoning for over paying, Stoopid!!. The Cardinals are bidding against themselves at this point. I hope Albert decides to test the market. He s been with the Cardinals for his career like Roy Halladay, and should see what his true value is to MLB, he’s earned that right.

If Holliday doesn’t win a WS after signing with the Cardinals , this should stop the comparing of him to Tex. Yankees immediately felt Tex’s impact, I doubt the Cardinals are NL favorites to WIN. The.y will win the division, and fade.

The Cardinals GM Mozeliak is so DESPERATE to sign Holliday, that he’s missed the opportunity to beat the demon seed (Boras) at his own game, because he has no other bidder for Holliday, he could hold out for less yrs and money.

Instead Losing Albert if they don’t get him is the reasoning for over paying, Stoopid!!.

]]> By: Justin http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-117740 Justin Thu, 31 Dec 2009 16:10:19 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-117740 Tell Ichiro that Tell Ichiro that

]]> By: Samuel http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107931 Samuel Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:18:16 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107931 One thing that probably shouldn't be ignored is Holliday's swing in Oakland. Obviously this is a stats based site so something like this may be more liable to get ignored, but Holliday started the year trying to play without his patented leg kick. When he decided to bring it back, he went on a massive hot streak and was absolutely railing the ball while still in Oakland even before he got traded. Granted there's no real way to quantify what I'm saying above, and playing the AL and in a huge pitchers park were certainly part of the equation in his perceived struggles, but there were other factors, too. It's also not like Busch isn't a pitchers park, either, but he still managed to hit fine in St. Louis. One thing that probably shouldn’t be ignored is Holliday’s swing in Oakland. Obviously this is a stats based site so something like this may be more liable to get ignored, but Holliday started the year trying to play without his patented leg kick. When he decided to bring it back, he went on a massive hot streak and was absolutely railing the ball while still in Oakland even before he got traded.

Granted there’s no real way to quantify what I’m saying above, and playing the AL and in a huge pitchers park were certainly part of the equation in his perceived struggles, but there were other factors, too. It’s also not like Busch isn’t a pitchers park, either, but he still managed to hit fine in St. Louis.

]]> By: Bruce http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107906 Bruce Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:17:03 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107906 If they're going to insist on player compensation, they need to have a better way than Elias, who seem to have no idea what constitutes value, ranking the players based on a system that has never, ever worked. How about basing the compensation system on the value of the player as determined by the size of the contract they receive? If they’re going to insist on player compensation, they need to have a better way than Elias, who seem to have no idea what constitutes value, ranking the players based on a system that has never, ever worked.

How about basing the compensation system on the value of the player as determined by the size of the contract they receive?

]]> By: R M http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107734 R M Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:09:21 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107734 Noseeum, I'm not sure where your logic lies that the Yankees and the Red Sox are the only teams that would sign multiple type A's in one season. The Red Sox had the 4th highest payroll last year, and there were 4 other teams with payrolls within $8 million of the Sox's payroll. It is a problem that could, and will happen again at some point, and needs to be addressed. I agree with you that the compensation system is screwy though. There was a post here about it a couple days ago....isn't it crazy that a team would have to give up their first rounder to sign Billy Wagner? Noseeum, I’m not sure where your logic lies that the Yankees and the Red Sox are the only teams that would sign multiple type A’s in one season. The Red Sox had the 4th highest payroll last year, and there were 4 other teams with payrolls within $8 million of the Sox’s payroll. It is a problem that could, and will happen again at some point, and needs to be addressed.

I agree with you that the compensation system is screwy though. There was a post here about it a couple days ago….isn’t it crazy that a team would have to give up their first rounder to sign Billy Wagner?

]]> By: noseeum http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107665 noseeum Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:21:38 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107665 "This is important. This flaw in the system that the Yankees exposed and exploited last year is something that a team with resources should do every year. The diminishing cost of signing multiple Type As in the same offseason inherently increases the value of each Type A that follows the first." It's not often that all of the following criteria exist: -3 free agents of Teix, CC, and AJ's caliber are available -The economy implodes, eliminating many teams from the hunt -The Yankees, or Red Sox (only 2 teams who might even do it) have needs that match up exactly with the players that are available. What needs to be eliminated is any compensation whatsoever for losing a free agent. These teams that can't afford a player should be trading him before the deadline if they don't plan on signing him. It's a major disincentive to trade if you expect to get a first round pick for a guy. Players like Varitek shouldn't be screwed because they cost a first round draft pick to sign. Compensation is stupid. The guy played out his contract. Why do you have any further right to him? These rules were made when the draft was an afterthought. “This is important. This flaw in the system that the Yankees exposed and exploited last year is something that a team with resources should do every year. The diminishing cost of signing multiple Type As in the same offseason inherently increases the value of each Type A that follows the first.”

It’s not often that all of the following criteria exist:
-3 free agents of Teix, CC, and AJ’s caliber are available
-The economy implodes, eliminating many teams from the hunt
-The Yankees, or Red Sox (only 2 teams who might even do it) have needs that match up exactly with the players that are available.

What needs to be eliminated is any compensation whatsoever for losing a free agent. These teams that can’t afford a player should be trading him before the deadline if they don’t plan on signing him. It’s a major disincentive to trade if you expect to get a first round pick for a guy. Players like Varitek shouldn’t be screwed because they cost a first round draft pick to sign. Compensation is stupid. The guy played out his contract. Why do you have any further right to him?

These rules were made when the draft was an afterthought.

]]> By: The Hit Dog http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107656 The Hit Dog Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:45:11 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107656 This is important. This flaw in the system that the Yankees exposed and exploited last year is something that a team with resources should do every year. The diminishing cost of signing multiple Type As in the same offseason inherently increases the value of each Type A that follows the first. This is important. This flaw in the system that the Yankees exposed and exploited last year is something that a team with resources should do every year. The diminishing cost of signing multiple Type As in the same offseason inherently increases the value of each Type A that follows the first.

]]> By: Kincaid http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107648 Kincaid Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:16:29 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107648 There is a park adjustment in going from wRAA to the run values used in WAR. I am not sure what park adjustments FanGraphs uses, but if you compare the wRAA in the "Advanced" stats section to the batting runs int he "Value" section, they're not the same even though both come directly from wOBA and PA. The difference is that wRAA is the straight conversion of wOBA and PA to runs, while the Value runs are park adjusted. There is a park adjustment in going from wRAA to the run values used in WAR. I am not sure what park adjustments FanGraphs uses, but if you compare the wRAA in the “Advanced” stats section to the batting runs int he “Value” section, they’re not the same even though both come directly from wOBA and PA. The difference is that wRAA is the straight conversion of wOBA and PA to runs, while the Value runs are park adjusted.

]]> By: noseeum http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/holliday-vs-teixeira/#comment-107647 noseeum Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:15:14 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=11417#comment-107647 I think this is the perfect illustration of where statistical analysis meets it's limit. These "total value" statistics like WAR and wOBA have so many assumptions built into them that they break down when two players are very close in value. Teix gets dinged .5 WAR (each year I assume?) compared to Holliday just for being a first baseman, which is the same amount a pinch hitter would get dinged? I mean, just look at the explanation of defensive adjustments and how arbitrary it is. That's not a criticism of them. It's a criticism of those who put too much stock in them.: " The positional adjustments are: +1.0 wins C +0.5 SS/CF +0.0 2B/3B -0.5 LF/RF/PH -1.0 1B -1.5 DH These are needed so that an average fielding 1B is not valued the same as an average fielding SS. The DH and PH should be at -2.0 wins (that is, a poor fielding 1B and a DH have the same fielding+positional value). However, as per The Book, it’s harder to DH, so we give them a 0.5 win boost. The PH gets an extra 1 win boost over the DH, because PHing is much harder." http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_to_calculate_war/ Do we know an average LF is worth .5 wins more than an average 1B? No, we don't. It's close enough for most analysis purposes though. Do we know how much UZR is off because range matters less at 1B and above average 1Bs don't get credit for improving the UZR of their teammates? No, we don't. Teix is not an average first baseman. Don't say he is because UZR says he is. Say something is fishy about UZR and first basemen. To me, there's no way LF is equivalent to RF in terms of defensive difficulty. LF is much closer to 1B than it is to RF. And MLB teams must agree, considering the terrible gloves so many teams are willing to throw out there. So yes, both of the players are great, but I would rank Teix higher. How much higher? Who knows? I think this is the perfect illustration of where statistical analysis meets it’s limit. These “total value” statistics like WAR and wOBA have so many assumptions built into them that they break down when two players are very close in value.

Teix gets dinged .5 WAR (each year I assume?) compared to Holliday just for being a first baseman, which is the same amount a pinch hitter would get dinged?

I mean, just look at the explanation of defensive adjustments and how arbitrary it is. That’s not a criticism of them. It’s a criticism of those who put too much stock in them.:
”
The positional adjustments are:
+1.0 wins C
+0.5 SS/CF
+0.0 2B/3B
-0.5 LF/RF/PH
-1.0 1B
-1.5 DH

These are needed so that an average fielding 1B is not valued the same as an average fielding SS. The DH and PH should be at -2.0 wins (that is, a poor fielding 1B and a DH have the same fielding+positional value). However, as per The Book, it’s harder to DH, so we give them a 0.5 win boost. The PH gets an extra 1 win boost over the DH, because PHing is much harder.”

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_to_calculate_war/

Do we know an average LF is worth .5 wins more than an average 1B? No, we don’t. It’s close enough for most analysis purposes though. Do we know how much UZR is off because range matters less at 1B and above average 1Bs don’t get credit for improving the UZR of their teammates? No, we don’t.

Teix is not an average first baseman. Don’t say he is because UZR says he is. Say something is fishy about UZR and first basemen.

To me, there’s no way LF is equivalent to RF in terms of defensive difficulty. LF is much closer to 1B than it is to RF. And MLB teams must agree, considering the terrible gloves so many teams are willing to throw out there.

So yes, both of the players are great, but I would rank Teix higher. How much higher? Who knows?

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