Comments on: I’m Tired of the “Next Cliff Lee” Posts http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/ Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary Mon, 13 Feb 2012 01:42:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: canvas http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-305135 canvas Fri, 22 Oct 2010 01:12:25 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-305135 hat doesn’t place him in the same category as Lee. Greinke isn’t a non-descript pitcher suddenly becoming an ace but rather an ace in the making living up to his potential. The same can be said for Billingsley, whom many have been high on for over two years now.<a href="http://www.cheapairlinetickets.net/" rel="nofollow">cheap airline tickets discount plane ticket</a> hat doesn’t place him in the same category as Lee. Greinke isn’t a non-descript pitcher suddenly becoming an ace but rather an ace in the making living up to his potential. The same can be said for Billingsley, whom many have been high on for over two years now.cheap airline tickets discount plane ticket

]]> By: Daniel http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-76527 Daniel Wed, 20 May 2009 15:30:35 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-76527 I think Zach Duke IS breaking out, but he was a pretty darn good prospect in his own right, though not quite on the level of Greinke and Billingsley. Duke, too, is only a few years removed from prospect-status. Let's go deeper... how about 'Matt Palmer is the next Cliff Lee'? He did his toiling in the minors. Or a personal hope... "Dave Bush is the next Cliff Lee." This one I could actually see. He had flashes of brilliance in 2005, aided by a 4:1 K/BB ratio, but has often relied on being 'effectively wild', which to me is rarely that effective. If he can keep the HRs down and continue to limit the walks, Bush could put together some very nice numbers on the season. He is currently at 3.74 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 38:11 K/BB through 8 starts. And he's 3-0, which doesn't hurt. I think Zach Duke IS breaking out, but he was a pretty darn good prospect in his own right, though not quite on the level of Greinke and Billingsley. Duke, too, is only a few years removed from prospect-status.

Let’s go deeper… how about ‘Matt Palmer is the next Cliff Lee’? He did his toiling in the minors. Or a personal hope… “Dave Bush is the next Cliff Lee.” This one I could actually see. He had flashes of brilliance in 2005, aided by a 4:1 K/BB ratio, but has often relied on being ‘effectively wild’, which to me is rarely that effective. If he can keep the HRs down and continue to limit the walks, Bush could put together some very nice numbers on the season. He is currently at 3.74 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 38:11 K/BB through 8 starts. And he’s 3-0, which doesn’t hurt.

]]> By: Alireza http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-76449 Alireza Tue, 19 May 2009 22:43:19 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-76449 Zack throws WAY too hard to be the new Maddux Zack throws WAY too hard to be the new Maddux

]]> By: kris http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73780 kris Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:43:58 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73780 I think that's why people are complaining. If you want to know who's going to be the most improved pitcher, ask it! Want to know who's going to be the most improved team, ask it! A lot people are fed up with taking an accomplishment and immediately diminishing it by asking "who will it happen to this year1?!?!" The reason why Cliff Lee, and the Rays were awesome was because it doesn't happen every year. I know i'm pretty fed up. I'm a simple man, with a simple understanding of life. Where I come from, if you want a question answered, you ask the question. You don't go warping it with recent references for no damn good reason. I can't wait until CNN starts asking "WHO WILL BE THE NEXT, FIRST, BLACK PRESIDENT?!?!" I think that’s why people are complaining. If you want to know who’s going to be the most improved pitcher, ask it! Want to know who’s going to be the most improved team, ask it!

A lot people are fed up with taking an accomplishment and immediately diminishing it by asking “who will it happen to this year1?!?!” The reason why Cliff Lee, and the Rays were awesome was because it doesn’t happen every year.

I know i’m pretty fed up. I’m a simple man, with a simple understanding of life. Where I come from, if you want a question answered, you ask the question. You don’t go warping it with recent references for no damn good reason.

I can’t wait until CNN starts asking “WHO WILL BE THE NEXT, FIRST, BLACK PRESIDENT?!?!”

]]> By: lester bangs http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73734 lester bangs Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:48:42 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73734 Totally agree - the call for a "breakout" after the breakout happens is very annoying. It's too late to call for a Greinke breakout, or a Billingsley breakout, or even a Pelfrey breakout. It's happened. Move onward. Totally agree – the call for a “breakout” after the breakout happens is very annoying. It’s too late to call for a Greinke breakout, or a Billingsley breakout, or even a Pelfrey breakout. It’s happened. Move onward.

]]> By: gp http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73721 gp Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:38:23 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73721 Come on, people, get a grip. Why so much snark? "Who is the next Cliff Lee?" means "Who is the pitcher who has a really good season and wins this year's Cy Young?" Period. There is nothing in the question that intimates to me that the guy's career path has to mirror Lee's. Same this with the "who is this year's Rays?" question. All it means is "what team that we didn't expect to make it goes far this year?" Come on, people, get a grip. Why so much snark? “Who is the next Cliff Lee?” means “Who is the pitcher who has a really good season and wins this year’s Cy Young?” Period. There is nothing in the question that intimates to me that the guy’s career path has to mirror Lee’s.

Same this with the “who is this year’s Rays?” question. All it means is “what team that we didn’t expect to make it goes far this year?”

]]> By: Alex http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73715 Alex Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:15:01 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73715 I wrote about the "next Cliff Lee" this preseason and the guys I can up with were Jeremy Bonderman and Kevin Millwood. Good career K/BB rates, previous success, never really a stud, a couple of tough (injury plagued) years. Millwood is working out pretty well so far. We'll have to see about Bonderman. Kyle Davies is also emerging as a potential Cliff Lee like breakout since adding his cutter. I wrote about the “next Cliff Lee” this preseason and the guys I can up with were Jeremy Bonderman and Kevin Millwood. Good career K/BB rates, previous success, never really a stud, a couple of tough (injury plagued) years. Millwood is working out pretty well so far. We’ll have to see about Bonderman. Kyle Davies is also emerging as a potential Cliff Lee like breakout since adding his cutter.

]]> By: Brian A. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73696 Brian A. Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:33:55 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73696 If you're looking for the full Cliff Lee package—left for dead, coming out of nowhere, drastic changes in observable skill set—Meche fails on the first two fronts, but Millwood and Washburn fail on the third. The difference between Meche and Lee is that while Meche underwent his transformation over the course of 3+ seasons, Lee did the whole thing overnight. To echo Jay below, there might not be a Cliff Lee this year, next year, or the year after that. The beauty of the Cliff Lee is that by the time it hits you, it's too late. Okay, maybe that's a bit misleading. You probably knew something was up in early May when he had twenty strikeouts for every walk. If you’re looking for the full Cliff Lee package—left for dead, coming out of nowhere, drastic changes in observable skill set—Meche fails on the first two fronts, but Millwood and Washburn fail on the third. The difference between Meche and Lee is that while Meche underwent his transformation over the course of 3+ seasons, Lee did the whole thing overnight.

To echo Jay below, there might not be a Cliff Lee this year, next year, or the year after that. The beauty of the Cliff Lee is that by the time it hits you, it’s too late. Okay, maybe that’s a bit misleading. You probably knew something was up in early May when he had twenty strikeouts for every walk.

]]> By: Jay http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73681 Jay Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:02:49 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73681 It is kind of funny in that one of the great pleasure of the game is that it constantly is showing us stuff we didn't expect, a sequence of events that we've rarely or never seen before. I don't know when we saw the LAST Cliff Lee, before Cliff Lee, but I don't expect to see the next one anytime soon. I expect to see something I didn't expect, instead. JSL It is kind of funny in that one of the great pleasure of the game is that it constantly is showing us stuff we didn’t expect, a sequence of events that we’ve rarely or never seen before.

I don’t know when we saw the LAST Cliff Lee, before Cliff Lee, but I don’t expect to see the next one anytime soon. I expect to see something I didn’t expect, instead.

JSL

]]> By: Pat http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-tired-of-the-next-cliff-lee-posts/#comment-73678 Pat Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:49:57 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=4569#comment-73678 I understand why all the comparisons tick people off. I'm tired of people saying Zach Greinke was going to break out this season, as if last year's performance wasn't good enough. Finding an out of nowhere ace is always a huge accomplishment, but usually you just can't predict it. Laugh it up, but I think a good candidate is Zach Duke. He's had success in the majors before, then struggled badly and fell off the map. This year, he looks like a whole different pitcher mentally and physically. He has limited stuff, but if he can keep going at the rate he is now, 10-15 wins and an ERA under 4 is possible, and that's light years better than anyone expected out of him. I understand why all the comparisons tick people off. I’m tired of people saying Zach Greinke was going to break out this season, as if last year’s performance wasn’t good enough.

Finding an out of nowhere ace is always a huge accomplishment, but usually you just can’t predict it. Laugh it up, but I think a good candidate is Zach Duke. He’s had success in the majors before, then struggled badly and fell off the map. This year, he looks like a whole different pitcher mentally and physically. He has limited stuff, but if he can keep going at the rate he is now, 10-15 wins and an ERA under 4 is possible, and that’s light years better than anyone expected out of him.

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