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	<title>Comments on: Lee&#8217;s Trade Value</title>
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	<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/</link>
	<description>Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary</description>
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		<title>By: circlechange11</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114865</link>
		<dc:creator>circlechange11</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114865</guid>
		<description>No, it wouldn;t explain him &quot;finding himself&quot;.

Specifically he found &quot;control&quot;.

Now, if he were chronically unhealthy and then was all of the sudden able to thrive through long seasons, especially at an advanced age (past peak years), that would be one type of red flag (actually, that describes Edgar Martinez).

It is very possible that Lee worked with someone who provided a pitching philosophy that clicked with Lee, and that he was able to correct a few mechanical things combined with approach/practice that led to improved control/effectiveness. It&#039;s also possible that he altered some his mental processes or how he went about getting hitters out.

I don;t remember if he had a cutter before he was demoted, but that effective-as-heck pitch could also be a difference maker.

Steroids, in this case, is a reach .... a really big reach.

Steroids help recovery primarily, strength/muscle/speed secondary. If there was a steroid that could improve pitching control and command, I would have been all over it in college. *big grin*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it wouldn;t explain him &#8220;finding himself&#8221;.</p>
<p>Specifically he found &#8220;control&#8221;.</p>
<p>Now, if he were chronically unhealthy and then was all of the sudden able to thrive through long seasons, especially at an advanced age (past peak years), that would be one type of red flag (actually, that describes Edgar Martinez).</p>
<p>It is very possible that Lee worked with someone who provided a pitching philosophy that clicked with Lee, and that he was able to correct a few mechanical things combined with approach/practice that led to improved control/effectiveness. It&#8217;s also possible that he altered some his mental processes or how he went about getting hitters out.</p>
<p>I don;t remember if he had a cutter before he was demoted, but that effective-as-heck pitch could also be a difference maker.</p>
<p>Steroids, in this case, is a reach &#8230;. a really big reach.</p>
<p>Steroids help recovery primarily, strength/muscle/speed secondary. If there was a steroid that could improve pitching control and command, I would have been all over it in college. *big grin*</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114809</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114809</guid>
		<description>This again.  Do people forget that the sainted Halladay got sent all the way down to high A ball in 2001 (after 3 years in the majors) to &quot;find himself&quot; at age 24?  But maybe he&#039;s been juicing continuously since.  What else could explain all those complete games?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This again.  Do people forget that the sainted Halladay got sent all the way down to high A ball in 2001 (after 3 years in the majors) to &#8220;find himself&#8221; at age 24?  But maybe he&#8217;s been juicing continuously since.  What else could explain all those complete games?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114808</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114808</guid>
		<description>Maybe, just maybe, you need to learn to use the submit button.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, just maybe, you need to learn to use the submit button.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114807</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114807</guid>
		<description>Maybe, just maybe, Dave&#039;s post was a little more nuanced than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, just maybe, Dave&#8217;s post was a little more nuanced than that.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114806</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114806</guid>
		<description>Nope.  Honestly, the people who follow twitter on this stuff are like meth-heads in a blasting cap factory.  Twitch twitch twitch....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope.  Honestly, the people who follow twitter on this stuff are like meth-heads in a blasting cap factory.  Twitch twitch twitch&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114805</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114805</guid>
		<description>Nope</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114804</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114804</guid>
		<description>Well, they just did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, they just did.</p>
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		<title>By: atfomd</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114781</link>
		<dc:creator>atfomd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114781</guid>
		<description>I was wondering about this question too.  So I asked a friend about it.  This person works with Lee and told me an interesting story from the player’s perspective.  Cliff is mad.  His wife is even madder.  They loved Philly.  Lee loved the team, his wife loved the player’s wives, they loved the fans, they loved the city.  They were expecting to settle in to the good life there for a while.  

Then for the past several months the Phillies have been telling Lee how wonderful he is, how they are really serious about having him around for several years, how they are going to make more runs in the post-season, what a big part of the team he is.  They even offered him $17M a year for 3 years.  But before he could consider their offer, they traded him.  To Seattle.

You may know that Lee grew up in rural Arkansas.  And to people who live in rural Arkansas, Seattle may just as well be Siberia.

So to recap:  The Phillies said they loved Cliff Lee.  They offered him a king’s ransom.  Then they sent him to Siberia.  Cliff Lee is mad.  His wife is even madder.

This suggests a couple things.  First, the Phillies fan wet dream of a Halladay/Lee rotation was never even a remote possibility.  The Phillies would know that as soon as Lee learned that they had spent the money they had promised him on Halladay, that he might be somewhat angry.  The prospect of Lee on the team as a second class lame duck would never work.  Further, the Phillies must have guessed that even having Lee in the organization when they announced the Halladay deal could potentially explode on them as they waited around for another Lee trade to develop.  I think they were trying to use a three-way trade as cover.  That they only got a 2 plus 2 trade together didn’t matter much as long as it was concurrent.  Because of this, both the Phillies and the Mariners knew dealing for Lee would only be a one year deal. This suggests part of why the Phillies took so little in return.

Now, I don’t understand why Cleveland only got a bag of rock for Lee in the first trade, but because the Phillies didn’t give up that much to get him, I bet they were more willing to trade him for a similar bag of rocks.  I think the two trades are more of an auto-correlation than two independent events.  Taken together, the Phillies need to deal Lee quickly to avoid tainting their franchise with controversy over their nasty treatment of their playoff hero and that they got him cheap to begin with may explain why he went so cheaply this time.

Since GMs and players are people, I think this is an issue that you won’t find the answers to in the numbers.  I also thing that it would be a bad idea to drag Lee to a press conference in Seattle just now.  First impressions are important and I know it would be hard for me to stand up there and say what a great deal this is to come to Seattle.

However, it’s my opinion that in a couple months when Mr. Lee has recovered somewhat from such a vicious bitch slap that he will realize that Safeco is a serious pitchers park and that he will be pitching in front of the best defense in baseball.  I think he will go out and approach his contract year with a vengeance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wondering about this question too.  So I asked a friend about it.  This person works with Lee and told me an interesting story from the player’s perspective.  Cliff is mad.  His wife is even madder.  They loved Philly.  Lee loved the team, his wife loved the player’s wives, they loved the fans, they loved the city.  They were expecting to settle in to the good life there for a while.  </p>
<p>Then for the past several months the Phillies have been telling Lee how wonderful he is, how they are really serious about having him around for several years, how they are going to make more runs in the post-season, what a big part of the team he is.  They even offered him $17M a year for 3 years.  But before he could consider their offer, they traded him.  To Seattle.</p>
<p>You may know that Lee grew up in rural Arkansas.  And to people who live in rural Arkansas, Seattle may just as well be Siberia.</p>
<p>So to recap:  The Phillies said they loved Cliff Lee.  They offered him a king’s ransom.  Then they sent him to Siberia.  Cliff Lee is mad.  His wife is even madder.</p>
<p>This suggests a couple things.  First, the Phillies fan wet dream of a Halladay/Lee rotation was never even a remote possibility.  The Phillies would know that as soon as Lee learned that they had spent the money they had promised him on Halladay, that he might be somewhat angry.  The prospect of Lee on the team as a second class lame duck would never work.  Further, the Phillies must have guessed that even having Lee in the organization when they announced the Halladay deal could potentially explode on them as they waited around for another Lee trade to develop.  I think they were trying to use a three-way trade as cover.  That they only got a 2 plus 2 trade together didn’t matter much as long as it was concurrent.  Because of this, both the Phillies and the Mariners knew dealing for Lee would only be a one year deal. This suggests part of why the Phillies took so little in return.</p>
<p>Now, I don’t understand why Cleveland only got a bag of rock for Lee in the first trade, but because the Phillies didn’t give up that much to get him, I bet they were more willing to trade him for a similar bag of rocks.  I think the two trades are more of an auto-correlation than two independent events.  Taken together, the Phillies need to deal Lee quickly to avoid tainting their franchise with controversy over their nasty treatment of their playoff hero and that they got him cheap to begin with may explain why he went so cheaply this time.</p>
<p>Since GMs and players are people, I think this is an issue that you won’t find the answers to in the numbers.  I also thing that it would be a bad idea to drag Lee to a press conference in Seattle just now.  First impressions are important and I know it would be hard for me to stand up there and say what a great deal this is to come to Seattle.</p>
<p>However, it’s my opinion that in a couple months when Mr. Lee has recovered somewhat from such a vicious bitch slap that he will realize that Safeco is a serious pitchers park and that he will be pitching in front of the best defense in baseball.  I think he will go out and approach his contract year with a vengeance.</p>
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		<title>By: PhD Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114775</link>
		<dc:creator>PhD Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114775</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll bet GMs suspect he is juicing and might get caught.  It would explain his suddenly finding himself at age 29-30.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll bet GMs suspect he is juicing and might get caught.  It would explain his suddenly finding himself at age 29-30.</p>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/lees-trade-value/#comment-114713</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=13312#comment-114713</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, Alex, it was strictly a &quot;what if&quot; mostly on the Braves side; they&#039;ve coveted Greinke for years.  It was more along the lines of &quot;what if we could get Greinke,&quot; followed by, &quot;well, Dayton was here and helped scout Franceour,&quot; and all of a sudden the Braves were getting Greinke for Frenchy straight up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, Alex, it was strictly a &#8220;what if&#8221; mostly on the Braves side; they&#8217;ve coveted Greinke for years.  It was more along the lines of &#8220;what if we could get Greinke,&#8221; followed by, &#8220;well, Dayton was here and helped scout Franceour,&#8221; and all of a sudden the Braves were getting Greinke for Frenchy straight up.</p>
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