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	<title>Comments on: Manny Ordeal Over</title>
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		<title>By: Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64937</link>
		<dc:creator>Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 20:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64937</guid>
		<description>CHONE projections at least account for league adjustments, and I&#039;d imagine at least some of the others do as well.  He would get a small boost in CHONE because it projects free agents to a midway point between the two leagues, but not in replacement level.  Replacement level is the same across both leagues, it&#039;s just that that level is further behind the average AL player than the average NL player, so if you compare replacement level to league average in each league separately, it&#039;s a different run value for each league.  The NL would give fewer runs above replacement that way to make up for the same player being more runs above league-average.  Comparing to the ML average gives you the same replacement level for everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CHONE projections at least account for league adjustments, and I&#8217;d imagine at least some of the others do as well.  He would get a small boost in CHONE because it projects free agents to a midway point between the two leagues, but not in replacement level.  Replacement level is the same across both leagues, it&#8217;s just that that level is further behind the average AL player than the average NL player, so if you compare replacement level to league average in each league separately, it&#8217;s a different run value for each league.  The NL would give fewer runs above replacement that way to make up for the same player being more runs above league-average.  Comparing to the ML average gives you the same replacement level for everyone.</p>
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		<title>By: Xeifrank</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64914</link>
		<dc:creator>Xeifrank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64914</guid>
		<description>I have Manny at 4.16 WAR.  I think a -15 dock for defense is a bit much considering the park he played in in Boston.  Dodger stadium has a more symetrical outfield with a normal wall height in left field.  I docked him 5 runs on defense, pushing the Dodger team WAR total to 50+36=86 wins.
vr, Xei</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have Manny at 4.16 WAR.  I think a -15 dock for defense is a bit much considering the park he played in in Boston.  Dodger stadium has a more symetrical outfield with a normal wall height in left field.  I docked him 5 runs on defense, pushing the Dodger team WAR total to 50+36=86 wins.<br />
vr, Xei</p>
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		<title>By: obsessivegiantscompulsive</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64909</link>
		<dc:creator>obsessivegiantscompulsive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64909</guid>
		<description>While that was true with both A-Rod negotiations, I think it was more a case of how useful a Manny would the Dodgers have in 2009 and 2010 if they lowballed him and didn&#039;t show the love?   They gave him numbers that didn&#039;t make him look stupid for backing out of 2 $20M options, while deferring things enough that it&#039;s not that much more than those options, around 10-15% more.

Meanwhile, they lost Lowe with no adequate replacement, and people forget that this team with Lowe and without Manny was at .500 when he was acquired from Boston.  Lowe was worth 5 wins in 2008, so basically Manny replaces Lowe&#039;s production on the team.  And the team was .500 with Lowe until Manny joined the team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While that was true with both A-Rod negotiations, I think it was more a case of how useful a Manny would the Dodgers have in 2009 and 2010 if they lowballed him and didn&#8217;t show the love?   They gave him numbers that didn&#8217;t make him look stupid for backing out of 2 $20M options, while deferring things enough that it&#8217;s not that much more than those options, around 10-15% more.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, they lost Lowe with no adequate replacement, and people forget that this team with Lowe and without Manny was at .500 when he was acquired from Boston.  Lowe was worth 5 wins in 2008, so basically Manny replaces Lowe&#8217;s production on the team.  And the team was .500 with Lowe until Manny joined the team.</p>
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		<title>By: obsessivegiantscompulsive</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64907</link>
		<dc:creator>obsessivegiantscompulsive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64907</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t win just on offense, and they lost a major cog in their pitching from 2008 in Lowe.  They haven&#039;t replaced a 3.24 ERA, 211 IP, 34 start pitcher with any of their pickups yet.  Randy Wolf, Jeff Weaver, Jason Schmidt?  Please, talk about throwing Jell-O at the wall.  And to expect that good of a year out of Stultz, Kershaw, or McDonald is to be a fanboy having a nice fantasy.  Only Kershaw is capable of that, but at only 21, it is not likely that he&#039;s going to duplicate Lowe&#039;s performance in 2009, perhaps in the future. And their bullpen after Broxton and Kuo is nothing to be scared of, unless you are a LA Dodger lead.  Plus Manny won&#039;t be repeating his 2008 performance.

To put Manny&#039;s 2008 season in perspective, his career BABIP is .339 and his BABIP for 2005-2007 was around .320, but he bumped up his BABIP in 2008 to .370.  The last time he had a BABIP that high was in 2002 when he only played in 120 games, 518 PA, when it was .373.   That was approximately the BABIP he had from 1997 to 2002, when he was 25-30 years old.  It is highly unlikely that at 37 he suddenly figured out how to hit so much better consistently at an older age. He will be more like the Manny of 2004-2007:  still a very good hitter, still one of the best in the majors, but not the offensive (and defensive) dynamo they caught in a bottle late in the 2008 season, and not worth the money he&#039;s being paid, at least according to Fangraph&#039;s calculations.

They actually had a losing record his first month, 13-16, before they had their nice run in September, going 17-8, to finish 30-24 with Manny.  That&#039;s like a 90 win season.  

However, it wasn&#039;t all him leading to that record.  Even with Lowe&#039;s great ERA, the team was only 19-15 with him starting, but he also greatly helped out the last two months, with a 2.27 ERA, 6-2 record, which could have been easily 8-2 with some better support offensively.  So he was also significantly responsible for the Dodger&#039;s success during those two months.  Thus the loss of Lowe is a huge blow to the Dodger&#039;s efforts, unreplaced by anyone, plus Manny will be a notch or two below what he did for LA in 2008, pushing them into the low-to-mid 80&#039;s win area.  That&#039;s a recipe for roughly .500.

So the Dodgers are a middling team, in a division of middling teams.  Injuries and unexpected good performances will be the determinants of who win in the NL Worst in 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t win just on offense, and they lost a major cog in their pitching from 2008 in Lowe.  They haven&#8217;t replaced a 3.24 ERA, 211 IP, 34 start pitcher with any of their pickups yet.  Randy Wolf, Jeff Weaver, Jason Schmidt?  Please, talk about throwing Jell-O at the wall.  And to expect that good of a year out of Stultz, Kershaw, or McDonald is to be a fanboy having a nice fantasy.  Only Kershaw is capable of that, but at only 21, it is not likely that he&#8217;s going to duplicate Lowe&#8217;s performance in 2009, perhaps in the future. And their bullpen after Broxton and Kuo is nothing to be scared of, unless you are a LA Dodger lead.  Plus Manny won&#8217;t be repeating his 2008 performance.</p>
<p>To put Manny&#8217;s 2008 season in perspective, his career BABIP is .339 and his BABIP for 2005-2007 was around .320, but he bumped up his BABIP in 2008 to .370.  The last time he had a BABIP that high was in 2002 when he only played in 120 games, 518 PA, when it was .373.   That was approximately the BABIP he had from 1997 to 2002, when he was 25-30 years old.  It is highly unlikely that at 37 he suddenly figured out how to hit so much better consistently at an older age. He will be more like the Manny of 2004-2007:  still a very good hitter, still one of the best in the majors, but not the offensive (and defensive) dynamo they caught in a bottle late in the 2008 season, and not worth the money he&#8217;s being paid, at least according to Fangraph&#8217;s calculations.</p>
<p>They actually had a losing record his first month, 13-16, before they had their nice run in September, going 17-8, to finish 30-24 with Manny.  That&#8217;s like a 90 win season.  </p>
<p>However, it wasn&#8217;t all him leading to that record.  Even with Lowe&#8217;s great ERA, the team was only 19-15 with him starting, but he also greatly helped out the last two months, with a 2.27 ERA, 6-2 record, which could have been easily 8-2 with some better support offensively.  So he was also significantly responsible for the Dodger&#8217;s success during those two months.  Thus the loss of Lowe is a huge blow to the Dodger&#8217;s efforts, unreplaced by anyone, plus Manny will be a notch or two below what he did for LA in 2008, pushing them into the low-to-mid 80&#8242;s win area.  That&#8217;s a recipe for roughly .500.</p>
<p>So the Dodgers are a middling team, in a division of middling teams.  Injuries and unexpected good performances will be the determinants of who win in the NL Worst in 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: joser</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64904</link>
		<dc:creator>joser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64904</guid>
		<description>Thank god -- our long national nightmare has finally ended.  Now that we&#039;re no longer fixated by this soap opera, we can turn back to the economy where... holy crap, WTF happened to the stock market!?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank god &#8212; our long national nightmare has finally ended.  Now that we&#8217;re no longer fixated by this soap opera, we can turn back to the economy where&#8230; holy crap, WTF happened to the stock market!?!</p>
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		<title>By: don</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64902</link>
		<dc:creator>don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64902</guid>
		<description>Is Boras really Vito Corleone and we just don&#039;t know it?

How does he continuously get teams to bid against themselves? 

Who else was lining up to give Manny 20M+ per year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Boras really Vito Corleone and we just don&#8217;t know it?</p>
<p>How does he continuously get teams to bid against themselves? </p>
<p>Who else was lining up to give Manny 20M+ per year?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64897</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64897</guid>
		<description>The home/road splits are what I&#039;m waiting for too...

It&#039;s interesting, though. His RngR+ErrR/150 as a Red Sock was -1 from 2002 to 2004, -25 from 2005 to 2007, then -5 in a small sample size last year. What to make of this is anybody&#039;s guess because -3, +4, -5, -23, -27, -26, -5 does not compute at any age at any stadium.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The home/road splits are what I&#8217;m waiting for too&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting, though. His RngR+ErrR/150 as a Red Sock was -1 from 2002 to 2004, -25 from 2005 to 2007, then -5 in a small sample size last year. What to make of this is anybody&#8217;s guess because -3, +4, -5, -23, -27, -26, -5 does not compute at any age at any stadium.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt C.</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64893</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64893</guid>
		<description>Like one of the other posters mentioned, I think Manny is one guy you can afford to overpay based on his win projections. He does bring in the fans, and they sell a lot of dreadlocks. OK, that&#039;s facetious, but he does bring in revenue not commensurate with his production.

On the other hand, I think by this point the fans have soured a bit on him because of the contract negotiations. A few days ago in the LA Times they had a (meaningless) poll about whether the Dodgers should offer him more money, and most people voted that the Dodgers should offer LESS money. That&#039;s very different than the public opinion of the negotiations two months ago. Meaning the fans aren&#039;t so happy about Boras&#039; and Manny&#039;s antics in the deal room. Obviously the overall economy has got to affect the fans&#039; opinions as well.

In any case, I think it is too bad that the Dodgers didn&#039;t come back with a lower offer, just to see what would happen. Who else is going to sign Manny? Almost no other team has even expressed interest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like one of the other posters mentioned, I think Manny is one guy you can afford to overpay based on his win projections. He does bring in the fans, and they sell a lot of dreadlocks. OK, that&#8217;s facetious, but he does bring in revenue not commensurate with his production.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I think by this point the fans have soured a bit on him because of the contract negotiations. A few days ago in the LA Times they had a (meaningless) poll about whether the Dodgers should offer him more money, and most people voted that the Dodgers should offer LESS money. That&#8217;s very different than the public opinion of the negotiations two months ago. Meaning the fans aren&#8217;t so happy about Boras&#8217; and Manny&#8217;s antics in the deal room. Obviously the overall economy has got to affect the fans&#8217; opinions as well.</p>
<p>In any case, I think it is too bad that the Dodgers didn&#8217;t come back with a lower offer, just to see what would happen. Who else is going to sign Manny? Almost no other team has even expressed interest.</p>
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		<title>By: Columbo</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64885</link>
		<dc:creator>Columbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64885</guid>
		<description>The Dodgers may be the favorites. But outside of Billingsley and Kuroda they don&#039;t have much starting pitching. I think they also lost some relievers. 

I am a Twins fan and I remember last year how everybody  annoited the Tigers to win our division.  Baseball can be a funny game. I would not at all be surprised if someone other than the Dodgers wins the division.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Dodgers may be the favorites. But outside of Billingsley and Kuroda they don&#8217;t have much starting pitching. I think they also lost some relievers. </p>
<p>I am a Twins fan and I remember last year how everybody  annoited the Tigers to win our division.  Baseball can be a funny game. I would not at all be surprised if someone other than the Dodgers wins the division.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob in CT</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/manny-ordeal-over/#comment-64884</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob in CT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=3381#comment-64884</guid>
		<description>I, for one, am interested to see how bad (or, perhaps, not) Manny&#039;s defense is when he&#039;s playing the field in non-Fenway parks all year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, for one, am interested to see how bad (or, perhaps, not) Manny&#8217;s defense is when he&#8217;s playing the field in non-Fenway parks all year.</p>
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