Manny Suspended
Manny Ramirez has been suspended for 50 games for failing a test for PEDs. Somewhere, Alex Rodriguez is doing a happy dance, as this will take the spotlight off of him for a while.
This is, honestly, fairly shocking. As much as everyone has said that you can’t really know who is clean and who isn’t, Manny’s one of those guys that there was no real reason to suspect. He’s always been big, he’s always had power, he’s always been a great hitter, and he’s not exactly known for his amazing work ethic. Manny Being Manny never included an intense dedication to making the most of his abilities.
He was just a guy who was born to hit, and he’s been hitting at pretty similar levels for his entire career. Yea, he went bananas on the National League after Boston traded him last year, but did anyone think that was evidence of steroid use?
This is, obviously, a pretty big blow to the Dodgers. They’ve played so well to start the year, and their division rivals are so lousy, that they should be able to survive without Manny for a few months. But still… wow.
Update: Manny is claiming that he took a medication that contained a non-steroidal banned substance. Will be interesting to see how much detail comes out, as guys who have made similar claims in the past have mostly cleared their names by being transparent.
23
Well this makes your article about the Dodgers wrapping up the division pretty premature.
“he’s not exactly known for his amazing work ethic. He’s not a gym rat who works out all the time to keep his body in tip top shape. Manny Being Manny never included an intense dedication to making the most of his abilities.”
Everything I’ve heard about Manny is the exact opposite, that Manny works his ass off (at least on the hitting side of the game). He just doesn’t always try as hard as he can on D or on the basepaths…
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4018367
“he’s not exactly known for his amazing work ethic.”
This could not be further from the truth.
glad others have noted this.
Manny is WITHOUT QUESTION known by media circles (at least here in Boston) as BOTH a gym rat AND somebody that “included an intense dedication to making the most of his abilities”.
Shame on you Dave.
Yeah, not add to the harping, but I have always heard that Manny subjects himself to intense physical workouts, as well as a large amount of film study.
How could anyone be shocked by this?
AMEN, DAVID! I love how some people just can’t trust their own instincts. Hasn’t ANYONE ever noticed that he wears a jersey size 4x too large for him? Does anyone know of a right-handed hitter in the modern era who put up numbers like him? (Well, there is this one other guy: Pujols)
I can’t wait to get the rest of the superstars out of the closet. It’s easy to say in hindsight but I’ve always harped on the same names accusing them of cheating ever since Bonds was ousted. Was right about Man-Ram. Right about A-Rod. Right about Clemens. Will be proven right about Pujols…
SELL THOSE ROOKIE CARDS NOW BEFORE THEY BECOME WORTHLESS!!!
Oh, and Dave Cameron: A-Rod (since his junior year in HS) was always big, could always hit. Pujols was always big, could always hit. Therefore, it should not surprise you that a big guy whom could always hit (Manny) got caught for steroids. Gee, maybe he was always cheating.
Did DMZ write this article? He should stick to satires and non-educational baseball articles.
I’ve always heard Manny works very hard on his hitting, and nothing else. When his mind is elsewhere, it’s because he’s thinking about his last or next at-bat.
it’s likely not for steroids and is going to be more jc romero than alex rodriguez.
“it’s a map, with different conclusions, that you can… JUMP… to”
what an awful swing and a miss on this one dave. the dude is a huge work out freak.
poor poor poor.
Yeah, the idea that manny doesn’t work hard is simply wrong. Countless stories have been written about how hard he works at hitting and keeping himself in shape. Frankly, this doesn’t surprise me at all.
The ESPN story said that the Times is expects that Manny’s response will be that the positive test comes from a doctor-prescribed medication. Honestly, this is an under-reported aspect of steroid revelations – it seems like many of the drugs triggering positive tests (including the major drug that A-Rod tested positive for) aren’t really ‘performance enhancers’ at all.
The spin on this sort of thing is often so ridiculous that frankly, I’m inclined to give Manny the benefit of the doubt until there’s good evidence to the contrary.
Except that there’s a list of substances that will trigger a positive test, and you need to get a waiver from MLB to take something that will, like a player with ADD taking Ritalin.
If what ever came up positive in the drug test was for a medical condition that was prescribed to Manny by a doctor, it would seem reasonable for the league to at least reduce the suspension. But I’m sure MLB feels a lot of pressure to have a strictly enforced drug testing program, so I doubt that will actually happen. Even if it really is the right thing to do…
And yes this is exactly why making bold prediction in early May is so difficult. The Dodgers *should* be fine without Manny, but it would seem entirely possible the D-backs make up several games before Manny gets back, particularly once Webb is back. So, say that lead is down to 3-4 games by the time Manny is allowed to play. That isn’t exactly locked up, even if we assume the Dodgers are still the better team. It would be interesting to see what CHONE predicts from this point out, given the current situation.
And Dave, the difference between a team expected to challenge for the division and a team that sucks is not a healthy Brandon Webb. No need to exaggerate to make your point. I’m pretty sure Brandon Webb wouldn’t be helping the D-backs score any more runs (they have 102 Runs scored so far, 2nd worst in MLB), or improve that team OPS of .683. With or without Webb up to this point the D-backs would still be in bad shape with the way the offense has performed.
Wait – Didnt you just tell us the NL West race was OVER???
That was – seriously – the mother of all jinxes
I am not shocked, but still somewhat surprised whenever someone tests positive because of the whole How-did-you-expect-to-get-away-with-that question. The testing is so frequent and the suspensions severe, it just doesn’t seem to be worthwhile for a guy with a lucrative, guaranteed contract to take the risk.
Not to mention that he was probably a lock for the Hall of Fame.
Then it probably wasn’t steroids! WOW!
What’s done is done. Time to study up on Xavier Paul.
Monster blow to baseball. This is one of a small handful of studs who we thought was most likely clean.
Who’s next, Pujols?
Duh
My first reaction was that this was a huge problem for the Dodgers. Then I started thinking about the NL West and realized it’s at most a minor problem. Manny’ll be back in form by start of September and ready for the playoffs. I suspect that in the end, the main result of the suspension will just be a lot of noise.
It’s shocking?
Take a look at Manny’s body type 12 years ago.
He is a classic PED user.
except this probably isn’t a PED. ignorance is bliss!
He’s suspended for 50 games. What exactly constitues a “PED” if you want to exclude substances on MLB’s banned substances list?
Hahahahhahaahaha hahahahhahahahaha ahahahahha haahahhaha ahhah ahahahhahha hahahaha HA!
Yeah, I’m sure he’ll try to claim irresponsibility that he didn’t ask team doctors which PED, I mean drug, is acceptable for replenishing his testosterone levels after years of cycling.
Did you know that gullible is actually a word originated by reanimated native american ghosts from the 50′s?
Hope you’re being sarcastic. Manny’s “body type” has been pretty consistant through the years. Unless you’re surprised that a 22 year old still puts on some muscle over the years? Heck I must be a “classic PED user” if that’s true. When I was 22 worked out even more than I do now, and I’ve gained about 25 pounds of muscle sense then. I bench more, I squat more, I curl more, all my weights are up at least 10% sense then.
Then of course you’re ignoring that this positive test may have came from a perscription drug…..
The mass ignorance about steroids and normal male development in this country is just astounding.
Yup. People immediately assume it’s steroids. ESPN (the network who tells people how to think about sports) says it’s steroids, so it is!
Actually, the first subtitle under ESPN’s main headline on the story is “Gammons: Positive Test Not Steroids”.
It seems like the court of public opinion and MLB’s Banned Substance Policy share the same flaw – the lack of understanding the difference between “banned substance” and “performance enhancing drug”. Every report out there is clealy screaming at us that THIS WAS NOT STEROIDS. THIS WAS NOT A PED. THIS WAS SOMETHING IN A PRESCRIPTION THAT HAPPENED TO BE ON THE BANNED SUBSTANCE LIST. Yet everyone is writing him off as a cheat.
My first assumption, even before I heard there were no steroids involved, was medicinal marijuana. I don’t know why. But I guess that’s still a possibility. That would just fit right into the “Manny being Manny” equation I guess.
And to add to the abundance of posts calling Dave out for the work ethic remark, yeah. I agree. Manny’s well known, maybe not so much for lifting all the time, or conditioning, but for being one of the most studious and intense hitters in the game. He’s constantly working on his swing and I’ve always read that the amount of film he watches on pitchers puts even Todd Helton’s magic iPod to shame. Tsk Tsk, Dave.
Jesus, it didn’t just happen to be on the banned list, it was a women’s fertility drug that happens to double as a masking agent and help restart the body’s natural testosterone production after cycling off roids.
Source?
TJ Quinn on ESPN.com
Ouch. As a big ole’ Manny fan, that cuts me pretty deep. Though I guess, in a weird way, I can feel better about Jason Bay in left field now.
..Not that I ever thought he was less than awesome, but awesome doesn’t do Manny justice.
Its not just a women’s fertility drug. It can be used in men to treat infertility (don’t know why Manny would be worried about that right now), or testosterone deficiency. It might be suspicious, but if he did get legitimate prescription for it, we have be aware that he might have a legitimate need for it…
So when the whole story comes out in less than a week and you realize that Manny was cheating all along, I am allowed to come back and make fun of you relentlessly for being ignorant, right?
PS – This guy hit it perfectly:
“Jesus, it didn’t just happen to be on the banned list, it was a women’s fertility drug that happens to double as a masking agent and help restart the body’s natural testosterone production after cycling off roids.”
See you in a week!
Sure, if you need to.
“So when the whole story comes out in less than a week and you realize that Manny was cheating all along, I am allowed to come back and make fun of you relentlessly for being ignorant, right?”
Right, take the stance of recognizing a possible legitimate need is ignorant…. And are we then allowed to come back on here in a weeks time if no such story comes out and ridicule you for prematurely judging Ramirez?
Gee wonder what worse, prematurely judging someone or leaving open the possibility that someone’s story might actually be true in the absence of evidence?
Heck, I think I’m allowed to make fun those judging Manny already, regardless if they turn out to right or not.
How about we tie some weights to ankles and throw him in the river. Then if he floats up, we’ll know he’s a cheater. Sound good to you?
Not looking too good for you, Wally. Your arguments are weak and have already been proven untrue. Way to do your homework, smarty-pants. I hope one day we will meet in person. So, when I insert my balls into your mouth please watch those teeth!
Couldn’t this just be banned stimulant or illicit drug? Aren’t the penalties the same?
The penalties for banned stimulants are not the same (it’s 25 games for the first offense), and the official statements about such suspensions, as far as I’ve seen, clearly distinguish between at least three types of banned substance — “performance-enhanced substance” or “banned stimulant” or “drug of abuse”.
Thank you for the clarification. And, upon reading up on it today, you are correct with the distinction.
Dave, your credibility on this website may have taken a bigger hit than Manny’s for that nonsense. The degree to which you are wrong is mind-boggling. There are so many stories about Manny’s work ethic that are flowing through my mind. I guess I’d say my favorite is: When Manny was in Cleveland, he used to set up a pitching machine on Jacobs Field and set it for 88 mph right-handed sliders down and away. Not surprisingly, he’s the best breaking-ball hitter I’ve ever seen. If only he would work harder (sarcasm).
I’m not here to speak for Dave, but when is the last time you referred to a co-worker who exhibits selfish and lazy behavior while on the job as having a good work ethic?
I do understand where you are coming from. There are plenty of positive stories about Manny’s quest to become a great hitter – his time spent at the Athletes’ Performance Institute in Arizona, yoga, his V.J. Singh-like workouts in the batting cage. “Work ethic” however, extends beyond individual achievement (yes . . . I sound like Al Capone from The Untouchables). In the past, Manny has overslept, skipped meetings, refused to work on his defense, been lazy when chasing balls in the outfield or when beating throws on the basepaths, etc. Those are examples of somebody with a poor work ethic.
If only baseball and your boring office life were comparable, then you may have had a shot with that comparison.
Yeah, but what if that co-worker was also the best at one of the most important aspects of their job because they worked incredibly hard at it? Like a salesperson who outsold everyone else, but at the same time didn’t really do any of their other responsibilities with much effort…
I posted this link earlier, but I’ll post it again:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4018367
Not buying that comparison what so ever, sorry but in a discussion of taking an alleged PED work ethic refers more to the amount of time spent in the gym and obsessing over being a better player.
clearly there are two ways to look at this:
I would agree with you, Choo, that Manny is a lazy fielder, and has some selfish tendencies. So you are right, in those aspects of his game, he has poor work ethic.
The way Dave originally phrased his post, however, seemed to extend to all aspects of Manny’s training. **Note: I notice now that this post has been edited to no longer have the bit about Manny not being a gym rat. I would appreciate it if somebody at Fangraphs confirms this edit**. The gym rat comment was egregiously incorrect. Reputable reporters have written and spoken at length about the time Manny spends in the gym, and his dedication to hitting. In that regard, he certainly does have good work ethic.
At any rate, I think my only concern here was how casually Dave threw these comments in. Obviously in some aspects he was correct, but by no means was he being fair.
It makes no difference whether we are discussing a baseball player or a hotdog vendor – the term “work ethic” is defined by moral virtue and character, in addition to hard work and diligence.
Moral virtue? Please.
yeah, choo is buttering the definition that does use the words “moral virtue” but only as that applies to one’s belief that hard work is morally virtuous because what you are doing is important or will lead to success. Work ethic is not synonymous with moral virtue, as Choo worded it.
So you might believe hard work is a good thing, and thus have work ethic, but you may not necessarily meet any other classifications of “moral virtue.”
OK. I will remove the butter and use the most white bread definition I could find. It says: “work ethic — the tendency to work hard at one’s job or duties.”
Manny works extremely hard at one of his duties, hitting, but in the words of Terry Francona, he also exhibits “poor effort” and “indifference” to defense and baserunning. Even in Manny’s case, work ethic cannot pertain to one exemplary duty while simultaneously ignoring two duties which suffer from poor effort and indifference.
Maybe the Giants use some of that farm system to acquire some corner bats now?
Needs more libel.
Needs a refresher on libel law.
I’m guessing MLB did some research before they decided to come out and suspend one of their biggest names. This is probably gonna stand despite the crying that it was “prescribed”. If it DOESN’T stand MLB needs to seriously consider their research policy before labeling their players a PED user.
guessing manny’s perfomance off the field needed enhancing
Anyone else think it could be for some type of ahem, recreational medication?
It was not a “drug of abuse” which marijuana is classified. I assume that is what you meant.
oh yeah saw the update just now…I was a little behind, sorry. Although this was the first thing that popped into my mind when i saw the initial headline
We already saw his character last year when he quit on Boston. I’m not suprised at all.
From Baseball Prospectus: “…never mind that he hit .347/.473/.587 in July as the drama unfolded.” That was part of an overall .299/.398/.529 he posted for Boston last season in 425 plate appearances.
…
Those numbers just scream, “QUIT!”
…
No, no…wait…they don’t. They don’t at all.
What the hell was your point again?
The only thing that yields a 50 game suspension is steroids. Recreational drugs get less time.
Not true. Drugs that mask steroids also carry a 50 suspension. That includes any drugs that increase testosterone levels (like fertilitys drugs) because those would tend to confound the steroid tests.
Pujols….the shrinking man
May 07
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2007/muscfit_may07cover.jpg
March 09
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bird-land/files/2009/03/sicover_031609_pujols.jpg
Yeah what incentive would a muscle magazine possibly have to enhance how he looks on the cover of their magazine? Pujols probably did use ‘roids at some point, but realize most magazine covers have a lot of photoshopping/airbrushing involved…
Seriously, we could just as easily label these:
Pujols flexing:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2007/muscfit_may07cover.jpg
Pujols relaxed:
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bird-land/files/2009/03/sicover_031609_pujols.jpg
I do the same thing in the mirror every night…oops…did I just admit that?
the manny spin is that it was a positve test due to a viagra-like drug he had proscribed for him, according to yahoo sports
Obviously this news really hurts as a Dodger fan. Not much else to say on that front, hopefully we’ll be okay.
I must say Dave, I know you’ve gotten a lot of flak for it, but I’m pretty shocked that you didn’t know about Manny’s work ethic. It’s pretty much common knowledge that he’s one of the hardest workers in the game.
Never known for his work ethic? He is known for his tireless work ethic when it comes to refining his hitting skills. Ask his teammates it is well documented. Why is it that people cant report truth? That comment is a disgrace to a good site just as it is everytime a columnist or writer makes an error out of ignorance and laziness to not aquire the truth or at least make an effort to do so.
Pick your favorite cliche…
The horse has been absolutely pummeled, the messenger has been shot, dismembered and cannibalized, whatever.
We’re in our 3rd hour of people taking the author to task for the blog post questioning Manny’s work ethic.
I’d say everyone gets the message.
Amateurs like to piss on a professional any chance they can, whether it’s economics, history or baseball writing.
Dave Cameron, did you really write this post?
Everyone has an off day, I guess.
Manny is one of the first to the ballpark to workout,
but he’s not very good with the Seattle jaywalking laws.
Looks like Jose Canseco was right about Manny.
Has Canseco been wrong about even a single player he has called out on steroid use yet? He may be a low life, but he has been right on the money with who is using steroids.
And why is Manny trying to trot out that tired lie, “my doctor gave it to me”?
Why do they always cry “ITS NOT MY FAULT”. Save it Manny. We know. You are dirty.
MLB testing is a joke. Players get tested once within 5 days of arriving at spring training and twice during the season during home stands.
Some steroids can avoid detection in a urine test a few weeks and sometimes a few days after use. So save the self righteous BS Manny. Now we know why Manny held out so long before signing a contract. It obviously wasn’t the money since he signed for basically the same amount the Dodgers offered earlier. Was it just a feeble attempt to take steroids a few weeks longer?
All this proves is that he really is as stupid and self centered as most people think he is.
So how many games do the Dodgers lose now that the tainted Manny is gone for 50 games?
Do you know what you are talking about or are you repeating what a sports radio personality said? You obviously have no idea how stringent ANY sports testing is or how it compares to MLBs. You obviously have no idea what substances are tested for or how long they are detectable, yet you comment.
If, as you blurt, steroids can be undetectable after a few days- the only system that wouldn’t be a joke in your eyes would be what? Daily urinalysis? So every drug testing program is a joke to you then -right?
Clomid, the drug he supposedly tested positive for, is a women’s fertility drug and is commonly used to restore testosterone production after a steroid cycle. So, unless the Dr. he got the Rx. from is strangely ignorant to Manny’s profession, it is unlikely an off label usage to legitimately restore functioning.
Question is, if this “leak” is accurate, it is very strange that he would have tested positive twice as he did- once in spring training and again to confirm recently. After the first positive, stopping the drug stops the enhancement of testosterone production. He was found to have high levels of that, which led to an investigation, that supposedly led to “paperwork ” that stated he used Hcg (clomid).
A regular user of steroids, and this kind of cycling, would never be detected in this way because it is far to easy to avoid. The hcg was not detected directly, nor were steroids or any PED. It was said to have been found in the manner I suggested above.
Personally, I don’t believe the leaks as reported so far. I do believe Manny deserves the suspension. My view of his accomplishments hasn’t changed at all. He’s one of the best to ever swing a bat.
The drug that he is being suspended for is called hCG. It is a woman’s fertility drug. According to wikipedia hCG is used in combination with various anabolic androgenic steroid cycles.
When using AAS the body after awhile stops creating testosterone. This drug helps restore and maintain testosterone production. The drug is used during and after steroid cycles.
I don’t want to get ahead of myself but it sounds like Manny is lying about this drug being in some other medicine. Unfortunately for all of us it seems that Jose Canseco is right. . . again.
Hmmmm, Brian Recca — I may be mistaken, but I don’t think Jose Canseco mentioned Manny Ramirez in his book.
CJ,
Take a look at the JDA (joint drug agreement) of the MLB CBA.
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf
Recreational drugs incur NO penalties. Take a look at Section 3 subsection B.
You can use
1. Cocaine
2. LSD
3. Marijuana
4. Opiates (e.g., Heroin, Codeine, Morphine)
5. MDMA (“Ecstasy”)
6. GHB; and
7. Phencyclidine (“PCP”)
without being subject to a suspension. You WILL have to be part of the leagues treatment program, but you won’t be suspended for even a single game.
We also know this was not a stimulant because of the length of the suspension.
C. Player Tests Positive for a Stimulant
1. First positive test result: follow-up testing pursuant to Section 5 above;
2. Second positive test result: a 25-game suspension;
3. Third positive test result: an 80-game suspension;
So that leaves one of 56 performance enhancing drugs as set down in Section 2 subsection B of the JDA which include 51 steroids, the salts or ethers of any of those steroids, HGH and Insulin-like Growth Factor (IGF-1).
Since you cannot detect HGH and IGF in urine tests, that means it was a steroid Manny tested positive for.
He can TRY to lie all he wants. It won’t help him one bit with informed fans.
So then Manny took one of the other PED’s that are banned under Section 2 Subsection B of the JDA.
Specifically:
55. Gonadotrophins (including LH and hCG)
56. Aromatase Inhibitors, including Anastrazole, Lestrozole, Aminogluthemide, Exemestane, Formestane, and Testolactone
57. Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators, including Raloxifene, Tamoxifen and Toremifene
58. Other Anti-estrogens, including Clomiphene, Cyclophenil, and Fulvestrant
Sorry Dave, I can’t agree with you on this one. Manny added a great deal of bulk during his Red Sox years. As at least one other author noted, take a look at his body type from his days in Cleveland.
You do realize, I assume, that people can get bigger from working out. Lifting weights builds muscle. Manny is a well-known gym rat.
This is not to say that the substance he took isn’t a PED–from what I’m reading, it sounds like its only likely use was to stimulate natural testosterone production after a “cycle” of PEDs–but you can’t convict a guy based upon how he looks.
I am not shocked! Steroids have been around since 1918. The entire German Olympic teams in the 1930s has been confirmed to have been on the juice. So I think it is fair to say, every great hitter since the 1920s could have been using steroids, and far more than you think did. Doesn’t change my love of the game though. But, it does make me think the Giants should be looking for a hitter right now, because they got a chance now.
Steroids were first first synthesized in 1934, so not really.
It is the same thing Bonds took!!!!
from ESPN
“Ramirez, who was suspended 50 games Thursday, tested positive for human chorionic gonadotropin, a women’s fertility drug that boosts testosterone levels, ESPN.com reports.
Spin:
Although HCG is not a steroid, it has similar effects of taking testosterone, which MLB prohibits. According to the report, HGC is used by steroid users to restart their body’s natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi and others used”
It’s similiar to something Bonds took – not the same thing Bonds took.
At this point I’m leaning toward the fact that Manny probably had this prescription written for the purpose it seems most dudes do. He probably juices.
But at the same time, I’m certainly not a pharmeceuticals expert (though I can’t say the same for all of us. Perhaps FanGraphs holds an extraordinarily high appeal in the medicine demographic). I’d like to know more about hCG before I jump to any conclusions – i.e., what medication the script was actually written for, any medications containing hCG that could be beneficial to Manny, etc. Maybe the guy really has a problem with impotence, who knows?
I’m not so much defending him as I am just saying that more details need to be made available before we all just assume that the only reason Manny could have been using this product is to help boost testosterone levels after cycling off steroids. Just because that seems to be the prevalent reason for using it doesn’t mean that applies to Manny.
I’m appalled that after all these years–a period in which every allegation made against any player has inevitably turned out to be true–that there are still people gullible, naive, or just flat stupid enough to believe that Manny wasn’t juicing here. The drug serves one purpose in males: to fix testosterone production after a heavy juicing cycle. Bonds did it (Clomid), too! This is HARD, INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE that Manny is (and has been since Cleveland) a juicer. He just finally got caught. That’s all. The only drugs doctors really prescribe for impotence are cialis, viagra, etc.
Don’t be a dupe and apologize for this cheating jerk.
I’m appalled that after all these years-a period in which so much information has become freely available through the very tools you’ve used to write that message-that there are still people lazy, careless or just flat out stupid enough to not look up the correct information about what they are discussing.
cHP is used to boost testosterone production after steroid cycling, but it is also used to treat ED, infertility and loss of testosterone.
From webmd: In men with low testosterone and FSH. LH stimulates the production of testosterone, and FSH promotes the formation of sperm. If a semen analysis, LH testing, and FSH testing suggest that abnormal hormone levels are preventing sperm production, these gonadotropins may be prescribed together to promote sperm formation. The man gets an hCG injection 3 times weekly until blood testosterone level is within the normal range (this may take 4 to 6 months). Treatment continues with injections of hCG 2 times a week and hMG or FSH 3 times a week until the sperm count rises to normal levels.
It is possible, even likely, Manny was using cHG because of steroids, but there remains the possibility that he has a legitimate need for it.
Don’t be a dupe and make rash, uninformed judgments of this man.
I forgot to mention that long-term steroid use causes ED.
http://menshealth.about.com/cs/fitness/a/anab_steroids.htm
Look I posted a link to prove it. Man, I’m such a shithead.
“This is HARD, INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE that Manny is (and has been since Cleveland) a juicer.”
No, it’s very strong CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence. But it certainly doesn’t directly prove that Manny used PED’s.
oh please, stop making it sound like these steroid users are the first cheaters the MLB has ever seen. There are multiple hall of famers that were known cheaters. Mike Schmidt, Willie Stargell, Gaylord Perry, Willie Mays, Whitey Ford, Ed Walsh, and Don Sutton all cheated in some way and are still in the hall of fame.
And to the person that said Canseco didn’t mention Manny. In his second book he shows before and after pictures of players who supposedly used PED’s. I remember Alex Rodriguez and Magglio Ordonez in there, I thought for sure Manny Ramirez was in there too. Could be wrong though.
And lol I don’t a PHD but damn wikipedia can make anyway look like an expert. haha
Well that drug is only prescribed for men when they suffer from Hypogonadism which is caused by steroid abuse, unless the person suffers from Klinefelter’s syndrome. This could explain why Manny has no children…
Somehow I think the steroid abuse is a bit more plausible, but maybe we will hear that Manny was suffering from severe depression brought on by his Klinefelter’s syndrome and needed to be medicated. Maybe, but pretty doubtful.
Maybe we should take Manny’s karyotype? Then maybe those that want to judge Manny can finally really lay into those that are withholding judgment as they wish?
HCG is nothing like clomid, nolvadex or anyother SERM anti-e. This information is not that difficult to find or comprehend. Given the choice they would label everything an “anabolic steroid”.
Does what you’re saying make it more or less plausible that Manny could have been using hCG for something other post steroid cycle testosterone boosting?
If I was betting man, I’d guess Manny was shutdown. I’m surpised he didn’t come up positive for some anti-e along with the hCG. The typical protocol would involve an AI or SERM, too. The hCG is going to exacerbate the ratio of Test to Estrogen before the bodies production of Test normalizes. Why was he shutdown? He’s old enough for Hormone replacement therapy to be beneficial. Though, I highly doubt any athletic governing body being enlightened enough to allow for said.
Am I the only one who wishes all the great players use? What is so great about watching your favorite players get old or injured? Tommy John surgery and Lasik are kosher but steroids and HGH are not?
Thanks for the enlightenment, Kevin.
And, BTW, that last paragraph actually makes quite a bit of sense in a weird, distorted way. It makes me think of a Daniel Tosh joke where he spins the steroid issue into hopes that all professional sports would require their athletes to use. It’s a legitimate argument – not the requirement of course, but the allowance.
If there were two leagues, one that allowed any kind of PED and one that did not, I have a strong suspicion the former would be significantly more popular.
This article should be edited. Manny has not tested positive for a drug that enhances performance, other than perhaps in the bedroom.
I absolutely agree with you Kevin. I really don’t understand why Steroids are illegal in the first place. Most people will give the “it’s bad for you” argument. I could go into a whole philosophical discussion but I’ll save that for another day.
But what happens when, in the future, they develop a Performance Enhancing Drug that is not hazardous to you health? Do we make it legal in baseball and in the U.S.? I have a hard time envisioning people accepting “super athletes” even though they are now anyway.
At Manny’s age its very possible an increase of testosterone, above what his body is capable of producing anymore, would be healthy.
There is some scientific evidence that the gradual loss of testosterone, after years of high testosterone, in males is one of the reasons why women out live men…..
I’m with you on not having the philosophical discussion, but there is even a health discussion that should be had. Steroids are known to be bad for women and children, but for middle aged men? Not so much.
Do you really believe the horse shit that comes out of your posts?
Now which little Lookout Landing tough guy are you, Snarfy?
Pretty irresponsible post from an author who is quickly becoming the Phil Helmuth of Internet baseball blogging.
YEAH, DAVE! I GUESS YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING! WHY DON’T YOU GO CRY BY YOURSELF IN A CORNER!
But seriously, people need to up their respect for Mr. Cameron. The lack of appreciation for his work is frankly disgusting.
We’ll up our respect for him when he ups his respect for us. It’s his attitude, not his work, that we lack appreciation for. I’m not saying that we needed twenty six comments pointing out the same exact thing—one would have sufficed—but it’s not like Dave doesn’t invite this sort of sentiment upon himself with his own churlish behavior.
lol, it’s pretty sad when people have to resort to jumping on a single, off-handed comment, however inaccurate it may be, just because of some perceived “churlish” behavior. What are you, children? “He started it first!”
Dave isn’t the only author on this site who has to deal with dumb comments but he’s the only one who chooses to respond to them without a hint of grace or civility and I just happened to be wondering at the time how the response might have been different had the exact same article been written by someone without a history of being so unabashed in his discourteousness.
I’m not here to judge what is or isn’t called for—frankly I find the whole concept of cyber outrage hilarious (what’s that saying about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics?) and Dave happens to be my favorite writer not for the content of his articles but for the response he generates—but you can’t expect to be a complete boor without provocation and not have some of that come back at you. This is in reference to all of his articles by the way, in case I was too vague the first time.
Dave has the ability to control the direction of his responses to an extent and he generally tends to steer them into hostile territory himself. What I find interesting is that for someone who seems to resent off-topic or unconstructive comments so much, he does more than anybody to fan and even pre-fan the flames.
He can continue to act as he does and bring a disproportionate amount of this sort of stuff upon himself or he can start acting in a more refined manner and encourage civilized discourse, but either way I’ll be here reading and enjoying.
hCG is banned by MLB. You can debate how much of an “enhancement” is involved when you’re just returning to baseline. He did break the rules, though. They can’t be disputed.
Once the baby boomers realize the efficacy of Hormone replacement therapy, popular opinion will swing. It’s hard to demonize something you wake up everymorning grateful to use.
The day is coming when identifying anabolics by their 4 carbon rings will be over. What then? As it is with the current technology, the “cheaters” are always ahead of the do-rights. So far, It’s been a battle primarily over drugs discovered in the early 20th century, and USADA and WADA will never admit this either out of idealistic hubris or fiancial self interest, but they’re losing. The authorities can’t eliminate usage amongst users who’s only payoff is the mirror each morning, and they expect to control the behaviour of the most competetive and driven people on the planet, when fame and fortune is at stake? Have fun rolling that boulder.
They’ve spent decades convincing everyone the bogeyman exists, I wonder what happens when a huge chunk of the culture is thankful they made a deal with the so called devil?
To all those who left comments regarding the recent article handing the Dodgers the division title, BP’s Jay Jaffe ran an article after the Manny news hit the fan saying basically the same thing. To quote: “the question is whether his absence will put the division title back in play. The answer—sorry, Diamondbacks fans and Manny haters—is probably not.”
What were the actual numbers?
He was buddies with Albert Belle, and it was pretty obvious that The Hitter Formerly Known as Joey injected more juice than a Jamba Juice cashier.
I’m not a huge Manny fan, but the assumption he doesn’t work hard to hone his craft is flat-out wrong. Yet, I see the same assumption dropped into a variety of articles both on the web and by major media. Unreal.
I know that more than enough people have commented on this point already, but it irks me when top black athletes are credited only with tremendous talent and not given credit for tremendous work ethic. The idea that any athletic success achieved by blacks is the result of god-given ability or good genes while white success is earned through dedication and training is a classic racist trope that has run through American sports writing throughout the 20th Century. Sadly, we still hear echoes of this harmful lie in Dave’s article in the new millennium. I submit as counter evidence the following:
AB 2B HR BB BA OBP SLG
7702 516 533 1238 .315 .412 .594
I contend that no one, no matter how talented, could achieve this elite, career-long, incredibly consistent performance (only one season with a OPS below .953 between 1995 and 2009) without a tremendous work ethic.
Greg,
It was obviously the fertility drugs.
/sarcasm.
Well said on the race issue though. That also chaps me quite a bit. Everyone is made to love the little hard working grit guys as they are labeled in the media, but I honestly can’t remember even once hearing those terms applied to any player that wasn’t an undersized white guy.
Greg,
You realize that the reason he was able to work so hard is because he was doing steroids right? You don’t just wake up one day after taking AAS and look in the mirror and notice your all muscle. The way that that AAS works is when you use it you are able to work out harder for prolonged amounts of time, which in turn creates large amounts of muscle. That’s why players like Clemens and Bonds were able to go through such intense training, which they then used for their defense.
I really don’t see the race issue here. I think almost everyone here will agree that in order to be successful in the MLB you need both talent as well as work ethic. I never really hear the media talking about work ethic that much in baseball whether it be black or white. Most of the time when I hear about it it’s from other players and coaches.
Brian, you do realize Manny wasn’t caught doing steroids right?
You’re right, Brian. Dave didn’t mention race in his post and you’re also right that most people would agree that you need to work very hard to succeed in MLB except for Dave, who stated that, “Manny Being Manny never included an intense dedication to making the most of his abilities.” If it takes hard work to have success then wouldn’t it follow that it would take incredible amounts of hard work to have the type of success that Manny has enjoyed? Dave didn’t mention race but the facts are:
1. Manny has dark skin and afro-caribbean ancestry.
2. Dave made an unsupported claim that Manny is talented but lazy.
3. This type of claim has often been used to discredit the achievements of minority athletes.
The Black athlete is better. There’s too much anecdotal evidence to not come to this conclusion. That isn’t to say they don’t need to workl hard, they do. If you have Western African ancestory you have a leg up, in most of the speed/strength sports. Sure, other races can compete here and there, but its the exception.
Find me a white DB or RB in the NFL, or 100 meter sprinter in olympics. They don’t exist for a reason, it’s not selection bias, if they could cut it we would see them.
Steen
Kevin, that’s a ridiculous position, not only morally, but factually. The sports or events where other races succeed is not a rarity. Think swimming, water polo, wrestling, ice skating, gymnastics, f-ing baseball, hockey, soccer, lifting, tennis, golf, numerous track and field events beyond sprinting…. the list goes on and on and on.
Some races are better suited to particular sports thanks to a general genetic make up, but the idea that Western Africans are just all around better athletes at everything is so stupid I don’t think there is a word strong enough for this situation.
Think of your basic argument applied slightly differently with just as much fact behind it:
“The White intellectual is better. There’s too much anecdotal evidence to not come to this conclusion. That isn’t to say they don’t need to workl hard, they do. If you have Caucasian ancestory you have a leg up, in most of the academic fields. Sure, other races can compete here and there, but its the exception.”
I only changed a few words, and its just as factually correct….
Yeah, all the black kids are just clamoring to play hockey.
Yeah, all the white kids are clamoring to be a sprinter?
I don’t think anybody is clamoring to be a sprinter.
Look guys, Manny didn’t do anything wrong. You can’t prove it, either. You know what else you naysayers can’t prove? The existence of God. All the evidence is circumstantial.
Manny is a well-built, very attractive man. I admit to having a huge man-crush, but the word ‘man’ implies that I don’t find him sexually attractive. That is not the case. I would only hope when it comes to his pubes, the sheets match the drapes!
PS – Manny would never cheat. Even if he got caught with a couple of hookers and an eight-ball he wouldn’t be cheating on his wife. It’s circumstantial. He would probably just be making sure the ladies made it home safe, and didn’t pick up some filthy STD from a stranger. Or a Yankee.
PPS – I do not live on Earth. I am from a land of make-believe where rationalization and common sense do not exist! I call it: Cleveland.
Hip Hip Hooray!
Three cheers for jumping to conclusions, and doing so in a mocking tone that clarifies that you are not just innocently speaking your opinion on a subject in which there isn’t a lot of information yet, but actually praising the entire idea of making half informed assumptions in favor of waiting things out before you know any facts at all.
And all of this is done in the most intelligent rhetoric of taking “situation A” with it’s very real details, and comparing it to “situation B” – an entirely fictional scenario that shares absolutely no common ground at all with the issue of Manny’s positive drug test.
Well done, Wally Ballz, you’ve made an absolute believer out of me. I’m now absolutely sure Manny Ramirez is a dirty cheat who has been taking steroids probably since he started playing baseball in his preteen years. It’s obvious, what with one failed test for something that wasn’t a steroid after 15 years of clean tests, no positive steroids showing up on this test, and career track record of level production and fairly normal body development. This one test obviously states it all. I think he should be banished, along with Papelbon. The way he freaks out after a high leverage is an obvious sign of roid rage. All other evidence be damned.
Here you go, buddy. You can jump to any conclusion you want. Now you can go back to living under a rock!
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4159870
“The Ramirez saga, as described by three sources with direct knowledge of the case, began to play out in spring training when the 36-year-old outfielder provided a urine sample for testing.
The test came back showing elevated levels of testosterone. Every individual naturally produces testosterone and a substance called epitestosterone, typically at a ratio of 1-to-1. In Major League Baseball, if the ratio comes in at 4-to-1 during testing, a player is flagged. In Ramirez’s case, his ratio was between 4-to-1 and 10-to-1, according to one source.
At that point, MLB notified Ramirez of his elevated levels and began further investigation, including taking two primary actions:
First, MLB asked the World Anti-Doping Agency lab in Montreal, which conducts its testing, to perform a carbon isotope ratio test to determine whether the testosterone spike resulted from natural variations within Ramirez’s body or from an artificial source. The test revealed the testosterone was synthetic — in other words, it was ingested somehow.
Secondly, as per the drug-testing policy, MLB requested all of Ramirez’s medical records, including those from doctors he might have consulted outside of MLB. Addendum C of the policy is authorization by every player to provide “health information” from “all health care providers (including but not limited to [add Club orthopedist and medical internist], other physicians, laboratories, clinics and Club trainers) with whom I have consulted pursuant to my Uniform Player’s Contract or the Basic Agreement.”
Ramirez and his representatives were prepared to appeal the synthetic testosterone results, intending to argue he had taken a steroid precursor known as DHEA, according to two sources. The drug is akin to the now-banned substance famously known as Andro, but it is not on baseball’s banned list.
Baseball had geared up to dispute the argument, and a Ramirez appeal was scheduled for last Wednesday. MLB’s legal team intended to use expert testimony to cite evidence it believed showed DHEA could not have been the cause of the synthetic testosterone.
However, in the days before the hearing, the union turned over Ramirez’s medical records — and they turned out to be a boon for MLB.
Within the records was a prescription written for the drug human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) — No. 55 on the list of banned performance-enhancing substances in the policy. The drug is mainly used for female fertility issues, but it is best known among male steroid users as a substance that can help kick-start the body’s production of natural testosterone, which is stymied when using synthetic testosterone (aka steroids).
The synthetic testosterone in Ramirez’s body could not have come from the hCG, according to doping experts, and so suddenly Ramirez had two drugs to answer for. Worse still for the ballplayer, MLB now had a document showing he had been prescribed a banned substance. This was ironclad evidence that could secure a 50-game suspension.
And so, in the hours before the appeal was scheduled to proceed, Ramirez notified MLB that he would accept the 50 games and drop his planned legal fight.”
PS – HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH AHHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHA
A bitter thing, a lamentable thing, a thing which is horrible to contemplate, terrible to hear of, a detestable crime, an execrable evil, an abominable work, a detestable disgrace, a thing almost inhuman, indeed set apart from all humanity.
Manny using drugs? No, Dave Cameron writing about Manny’s work ethic.
Dave defiles the land with his filth, removes the benefits of the dew and infects the purity of the air.
We, who are founded by the Lord upon the watch-tower of regal eminence to defend the liberty of the faith of the Church of Fantasy Baseball, hereby decree that every member of the Order of Fangraphs be held in captivity and reserved for ecclesiastical judgement.
Dave Cameron is hereby accused of heresy by denying Christ, the Virgin and the Saints; spitting and trampling on the cross; worshipping an idol in the form of the head of a man; worshipping the devil Baphomet in the form of a black cat and questioning Manny’s work ethic…
Dave Cameron’s goods, property and website, shall be seized and held in royal custody.
While it’s not proven, I would be absolutely shocked if Ramirez wasn’t using PED’s. Yes it’s true that there are no prior positive drug tests, there is also this list thing of 103. I know everyone hates him but Jose Canseco, the man who has been truthful and right about almost everything he has said, told reporters that he would be surprised if Manny Ramirez wasn’t on this list. He also said that the reasons teams weren’t going crazy for Ramirez this off season is because teams new he was an abuser.
AvgJoe,
Looks like you didn’t post again and I can see why.
You are so obviously wrong on every point that as this whole thing has played out you are looking more and more like a complete idiot.
Maybe you should read the rest of the posts before you spout more vitriol fillled garbage like your last post on here.
BTW, Manny apparently USED a synthetic testosterone and tested positive for it in spring training. MLB then asked for his medical records and found the use of hCG.
HCG cannot produce synthetic testosterone, but is used to get the body to start producing testosterone on its own after a person has used anabolic steroids.
And testing should be done like it is in the Olympics. randomly and both in and out of season. What good is testing if you know exactly when you are going to be tested and are never tested out of season?
In MLB today, you can do steroids up to a few weeks before spring training and any time after you are tested the 2nd time in the regular season with no opportunity to be caught since testing is only done during spring training within 5 days of arriving and twice during the regular season during a home stand. (It has to be done in your own facility by the JDA).
Manny has to be either incredibly stupid or incredibly arrogant or both to get caught using steroids and other banned PED’s .
AvgJoe you just got PWNED!!!!
Also, I’d love to point out that Jesus and Wally that were posting earlier with the same nonsense no longer post.
I must be embarrassing to them once they finally realized that everything they have been arguing so vehemently is 100% wrong or bi-products of mancrush wishful thinking.
PS – Who cares about Manny’s work ethic? Dave Cameron rocks (even though he gives me thumbs down for being absolutely right)…
Oh I’m still here. But I haven’t turned out to be wrong. I never claimed Manny didn’t do steroids, I claimed we didn’t know for a fact that he did. We had some evidence that he might have, but it wasn’t established fact.
And even as it stands, I’m left wondering what we really should make of it. He used a steroid-like product that wasn’t banned, then used a drug that has a legitimate use in restoring natural testosterone levels. Which basically just leads us to issues brought up in Gregg’s. Basically, why is what Manny did any worse than a cortisone shot?
I’m still present as well.
I never made the argument that Manny did not do steroids. I simply stated that it is irresponsible to immediately pass judgement on a situation before all of the information necessary was made available. And honestly, I still don’t think we’ve yet reached that point. Again, I’ll state what I already have several times over here:
Manny probably did steroids. However, at this point it’s impossible for any of us to know for sure whether he did, or what the circumstances of his use were. To adamently claim that he absolutely did or absolutely did not, at this point, is ignorant.
Manny would never do drugs! Never, ever, ever.
[Covers ears and hums out loud]
I don’t care what “proof” or “evidence” or “rationale” you may have against Manny. If you ever hurt his feelings again, I will find you and cut you! I WILL CUT YOU!!!!
Wow, you are right, I really am a jerk-off.
Cool. I have an imposter.
And it should be noted that the above fake post is the first time in this comments section that I’ve said anything about Manny absolutely not doing steroids.
Let me preface what I am saying by fully admitting that steroids do in fact help players, that much is fairly obvious. My real question is just how much, and why are steroids any different than speed, using a nail file or jell on a pitched ball, corked bats, or even cortisone shots? I think as the years go by, we will start to see that steroids are not a magic pill that turns Jeremy Giambi into Jason Giambi. The Saber community has already started to dabble in this debate, and their general thought process is it may add around 5 home runs a year to an elite player. There was a lot going on earlier this decade besides steroids that contributed to the increase in offense. Expansion was a huge one, smaller ballparks another, and of course there beliefe in a juiced ball in that era.
So my question to you would be, what do you say if Alex goes on to win another two MVP’s, with the extensive drug testing that he is subject to now? How does one explain Alex having a career year in 2007 with the amount of testing that he had to undergo? Don’t you believe that maybe, just maybe people have overblown the effects steroids have on performance? Why is it that Aaron admits in his own book to using amphetamines (which were illegal, banned, and without question a PED) the entire year he broke Ruth’s record, and no one writes pieces on his legacy being tarnished?? Where are the pieces on the countless HOF pitchers who have readily admitted to cheating and their legacys?
Have you seen this piece before?
http://www.sportsworldny.com/index.php?showtopic=22343
Let me share a quick story with you. I am 31 and grew up in Staten Island, NYC. When I was a young kid, say 7 or 8 years old, I started to play in the neighborhood and play sports and all the normal little kid stuff. All or most of my friends had older brothers, and they had friends. Growing up, these kids who were 16 or 17 were almost all on steroids. You knew the signs, there was no questioning whether or not they were natural. So when Lenny Dykstra joined the Phillies in ’89, I was 11 years old. We knew, as 11 year old kids, that Lenny was juiced out of his mind. In the above piece, former MLB’er Tom House 7 – 8 pitchers on every staff were dabbling in steroids in the late ’60′s!!! Steroids have been around for ever Howard, just like everyother form of cheating. If your telling me Neikro and Whitey Ford are HOF’ers, than so is Bonds and A-Rod.