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	<title>Comments on: Not Quite Yet, Cliff</title>
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	<description>Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Scappy</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39273</link>
		<dc:creator>Scappy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39273</guid>
		<description>If anyone cares, I just crunched the WPA+/- numbers and Halladay has earned a 14-7 record while Lee should be 13-3.  Halladay has effectively pitched more games than Lee, but he has not pitched as well.  That said I don&#039;t think I would complain either way.

Now 2005 was not an exceptionally good year for the voters.  Based on WPA Santana was 16-9 while Colon was 14-9, through in the SO and ERA and there is no reason for Santana to not win the award.

The win statistic as it is used today is pretty awful.  If I played fantasy baseball I&#039;d lobby for quality starts to be used instead of wins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone cares, I just crunched the WPA+/- numbers and Halladay has earned a 14-7 record while Lee should be 13-3.  Halladay has effectively pitched more games than Lee, but he has not pitched as well.  That said I don&#8217;t think I would complain either way.</p>
<p>Now 2005 was not an exceptionally good year for the voters.  Based on WPA Santana was 16-9 while Colon was 14-9, through in the SO and ERA and there is no reason for Santana to not win the award.</p>
<p>The win statistic as it is used today is pretty awful.  If I played fantasy baseball I&#8217;d lobby for quality starts to be used instead of wins.</p>
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		<title>By: Big Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39177</link>
		<dc:creator>Big Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39177</guid>
		<description>Not a very dtrong effort here Dave. Using the Cleveland bullpen in part to evaluate Cliff Lee&#039;s performance defies logic. I could go through all of the reasons, but the other commenters have done a pretty good job sinking your argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a very dtrong effort here Dave. Using the Cleveland bullpen in part to evaluate Cliff Lee&#8217;s performance defies logic. I could go through all of the reasons, but the other commenters have done a pretty good job sinking your argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Bendix</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39165</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Bendix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39165</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think we should penalize Lee for his usage. It&#039;s one thing if there is something about Lee that suggests that he is posting quality numbers in part because he is being used very carefully, but I do not believe this is so (if, for example, he&#039;s removed after 75-80 pitches per start). But this is not the case, and, as such, we have no reason to believe that Lee would be particularly harmed if he pitched 20 more innings.

If anything, the Indians bullpen HURTS Lee, as they are less likely to strand runners that Lee leaves on base, and Wedge is MORE likely to leave Lee in even if Lee is tired, thereby hurting his numbers.

It might be another case if we were comparing the exact same run prevention spread across different amounts of innings (such as CC Sabathia vs Josh Beckett last year). But Lee has been better at preventing runs, and as such I think he deserves the nod over Halladay.

Plus, he has so many more wins :).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think we should penalize Lee for his usage. It&#8217;s one thing if there is something about Lee that suggests that he is posting quality numbers in part because he is being used very carefully, but I do not believe this is so (if, for example, he&#8217;s removed after 75-80 pitches per start). But this is not the case, and, as such, we have no reason to believe that Lee would be particularly harmed if he pitched 20 more innings.</p>
<p>If anything, the Indians bullpen HURTS Lee, as they are less likely to strand runners that Lee leaves on base, and Wedge is MORE likely to leave Lee in even if Lee is tired, thereby hurting his numbers.</p>
<p>It might be another case if we were comparing the exact same run prevention spread across different amounts of innings (such as CC Sabathia vs Josh Beckett last year). But Lee has been better at preventing runs, and as such I think he deserves the nod over Halladay.</p>
<p>Plus, he has so many more wins :).</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Lyons</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39147</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39147</guid>
		<description>Dave,

I don&#039;t find your argument at all compelling against using an average bullpen&#039;s replacement of Lee&#039;s innings v. the Indians bullpen&#039;s replacement of Lee&#039;s innings.  If you&#039;re not going to isolate Lee from his teammates in evaluating Lee, then Halladay deserves the same failure to isolate, which you haven&#039;t done.

The manager&#039;s decision to continue riding a starter -- particularly an ace -- largely comes down to pitch count, not bullpen.  No matter how awful your bullpen, when your ace is spent, your ace is spent.  Halladay has thrown 14.46 pitches per inning vs. 15.02 per inning for Lee.  Why?  In large part because Toronto&#039;s defense (8th in DER) ends innings faster than Cleveland&#039;s defense (21st).

If you&#039;re going to give Halladay a bump because he&#039;s been of slightly less quality in 21.1 more IP of quantity, that&#039;s not unfair.  But you have to weed out some portion of those 21.1 IP to Toronto&#039;s defense -- NOT all to Halladay -- as they ended innings more effectively, and thus slowed Halladay&#039;s approach to his pitch count, and thus extended his IP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t find your argument at all compelling against using an average bullpen&#8217;s replacement of Lee&#8217;s innings v. the Indians bullpen&#8217;s replacement of Lee&#8217;s innings.  If you&#8217;re not going to isolate Lee from his teammates in evaluating Lee, then Halladay deserves the same failure to isolate, which you haven&#8217;t done.</p>
<p>The manager&#8217;s decision to continue riding a starter &#8212; particularly an ace &#8212; largely comes down to pitch count, not bullpen.  No matter how awful your bullpen, when your ace is spent, your ace is spent.  Halladay has thrown 14.46 pitches per inning vs. 15.02 per inning for Lee.  Why?  In large part because Toronto&#8217;s defense (8th in DER) ends innings faster than Cleveland&#8217;s defense (21st).</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re going to give Halladay a bump because he&#8217;s been of slightly less quality in 21.1 more IP of quantity, that&#8217;s not unfair.  But you have to weed out some portion of those 21.1 IP to Toronto&#8217;s defense &#8212; NOT all to Halladay &#8212; as they ended innings more effectively, and thus slowed Halladay&#8217;s approach to his pitch count, and thus extended his IP.</p>
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		<title>By: Finn</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39129</link>
		<dc:creator>Finn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39129</guid>
		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, the Neyer/James Cy Young Predictor has the following AL Cy Young Top 5:

1. Francisco Rodriguez (154.4)
2. Cliff Lee (150.1)
3. Joe Saunders (124.8)
4. Jonathan Papelbon (124.2)
5. Roy Halladay (122.4)

The formula is ((5*IP/9)-ER) + (SO/12) + (SV*2.5) + Shutouts + ((W*6)-(L*2)) + A 12-point bonus awarded for leading your team to the division championship (pro-rated based on the current standings).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, the Neyer/James Cy Young Predictor has the following AL Cy Young Top 5:</p>
<p>1. Francisco Rodriguez (154.4)<br />
2. Cliff Lee (150.1)<br />
3. Joe Saunders (124.8)<br />
4. Jonathan Papelbon (124.2)<br />
5. Roy Halladay (122.4)</p>
<p>The formula is ((5*IP/9)-ER) + (SO/12) + (SV*2.5) + Shutouts + ((W*6)-(L*2)) + A 12-point bonus awarded for leading your team to the division championship (pro-rated based on the current standings).</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Batura</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39053</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Batura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39053</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but this IS the Cy Young-- 1950s metrics are apparently all that is relevant.  That given, then yes, it looks like Cliff Lee will be a shoo in this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but this IS the Cy Young&#8211; 1950s metrics are apparently all that is relevant.  That given, then yes, it looks like Cliff Lee will be a shoo in this year.</p>
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		<title>By: Trev</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39035</link>
		<dc:creator>Trev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39035</guid>
		<description>RE:  Dave&#039;s comment making my last post useless

But then we&#039;re making a judgment we can&#039;t make on how many innings Lee would pitch in an ideal world, pitch to &quot;his heart&#039;s content&quot;.  I don&#039;t think we can judge whether Lee goes back out for the 8th because Wedge needs him to or because that&#039;s Lee&#039;s optimal usage pattern, irrespective of the bullpen behind him.  [How do we know what Lee&#039;s usage would be in a world where Lee pitches as many innings as he wants versus a world where he pitches as many innings as Wedge says so?]

That said, you could use Lee&#039;s pitches/GS to help your point.  From 2002-2007 Lee averaged 97 pitches/start while he&#039;s averaging 106 this year. But this could just be a product of increased effectiveness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RE:  Dave&#8217;s comment making my last post useless</p>
<p>But then we&#8217;re making a judgment we can&#8217;t make on how many innings Lee would pitch in an ideal world, pitch to &#8220;his heart&#8217;s content&#8221;.  I don&#8217;t think we can judge whether Lee goes back out for the 8th because Wedge needs him to or because that&#8217;s Lee&#8217;s optimal usage pattern, irrespective of the bullpen behind him.  [How do we know what Lee's usage would be in a world where Lee pitches as many innings as he wants versus a world where he pitches as many innings as Wedge says so?]</p>
<p>That said, you could use Lee&#8217;s pitches/GS to help your point.  From 2002-2007 Lee averaged 97 pitches/start while he&#8217;s averaging 106 this year. But this could just be a product of increased effectiveness.</p>
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		<title>By: Trev</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39033</link>
		<dc:creator>Trev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39033</guid>
		<description>Because I really don&#039;t want to get back to work, here&#039;s another useless exercise:  How about we compare the total runs allowed in the &lt;i&gt;games&lt;/i&gt; Halladay and Lee pitched in.

Halladay made 24 starts (and one scoreless 2.1 inning relief appearance).  Setting that aside, he &quot;asked&quot; his bullpen to pitch 36.1 innings.
w/ TOR bullpen:  76 RA
w/ avg bullpen:  81 RA
w/ CLE bullpen:  86 RA

Lee made 23 starts and averaged 7.03 IP/GS.  If we give him one more start at his current IP and RA rates, he &quot;asked&quot; his bullpen to pitch 47.1 IP.
w/ TOR bullpen:  64 RA
w/ avg bullpen:  71 RA
w/ CLE bullpen:  76 RA

What does this all mean (besides I really like to procrastinate)?  That in 24 starts, Halladay and Lee&#039;s teams both give up 76 runs despite the difference in bullpen quality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because I really don&#8217;t want to get back to work, here&#8217;s another useless exercise:  How about we compare the total runs allowed in the <i>games</i> Halladay and Lee pitched in.</p>
<p>Halladay made 24 starts (and one scoreless 2.1 inning relief appearance).  Setting that aside, he &#8220;asked&#8221; his bullpen to pitch 36.1 innings.<br />
w/ TOR bullpen:  76 RA<br />
w/ avg bullpen:  81 RA<br />
w/ CLE bullpen:  86 RA</p>
<p>Lee made 23 starts and averaged 7.03 IP/GS.  If we give him one more start at his current IP and RA rates, he &#8220;asked&#8221; his bullpen to pitch 47.1 IP.<br />
w/ TOR bullpen:  64 RA<br />
w/ avg bullpen:  71 RA<br />
w/ CLE bullpen:  76 RA</p>
<p>What does this all mean (besides I really like to procrastinate)?  That in 24 starts, Halladay and Lee&#8217;s teams both give up 76 runs despite the difference in bullpen quality.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Cameron</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39032</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Cameron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39032</guid>
		<description>The problem with that, however, is that Eric Wedge knows that his bullpen stinks, and that influences his decision of when to replace Lee.  We can&#039;t just assume that Lee&#039;s usage would have been exactly the same with an average (or great) bullpen - it&#039;s probable that if the Indians pen wasn&#039;t a disaster, Lee would have pitched fewer innings than he has.  

The context of his innings pitched can&#039;t be removed from the bullpen that is actually coming in after him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with that, however, is that Eric Wedge knows that his bullpen stinks, and that influences his decision of when to replace Lee.  We can&#8217;t just assume that Lee&#8217;s usage would have been exactly the same with an average (or great) bullpen &#8211; it&#8217;s probable that if the Indians pen wasn&#8217;t a disaster, Lee would have pitched fewer innings than he has.  </p>
<p>The context of his innings pitched can&#8217;t be removed from the bullpen that is actually coming in after him.</p>
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		<title>By: Trev</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39031</link>
		<dc:creator>Trev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/not-quite-yet-cliff/#comment-39031</guid>
		<description>I agree with Josh.

Penalizing Lee for the quality of his bullpen is just like penalizing Halladay&#039;s teammates for not giving him the run support for 4 more wins.  

For what it&#039;s worth, the Toronto bullpen has been excellent this year -- 3.01 RA/9.  Using your equation, Cliff Lee + Toronto&#039;s pen (7 RA in 20 IP) = 53 RA.  This pushes Lee&#039;s advantage to 11 runs over Halladay.

Using AL average bullpens (4.30 RA/9) for Lee we get 56 RA, eight runs better than Halladay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Josh.</p>
<p>Penalizing Lee for the quality of his bullpen is just like penalizing Halladay&#8217;s teammates for not giving him the run support for 4 more wins.  </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, the Toronto bullpen has been excellent this year &#8212; 3.01 RA/9.  Using your equation, Cliff Lee + Toronto&#8217;s pen (7 RA in 20 IP) = 53 RA.  This pushes Lee&#8217;s advantage to 11 runs over Halladay.</p>
<p>Using AL average bullpens (4.30 RA/9) for Lee we get 56 RA, eight runs better than Halladay.</p>
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