Comments on: Orlando to Cincinnati http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/ Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:14:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: walkoffblast http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127505 walkoffblast Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:35:13 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127505 I do not think anyone is saying there is not a place for cabrera on the team just merely answering your last question with a no. I think where I would disagree is your assertion that adding a backup SS to the roster is worth 4 mil. It just seems like a misuse of resources. Sure cabrera should earn his money if his defense has not collapsed but they had the cheaper option already there. I do not think anyone is saying there is not a place for cabrera on the team just merely answering your last question with a no. I think where I would disagree is your assertion that adding a backup SS to the roster is worth 4 mil. It just seems like a misuse of resources. Sure cabrera should earn his money if his defense has not collapsed but they had the cheaper option already there.

]]> By: Rick http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127185 Rick Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:48:40 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127185 Consider that a good portion of Cabrera's value isn't going to come from him being an upgrade over Janish as the starter, but from Janish as the other alternatives as a backup. The Reds are quite shallow at the ML level at SS and put up a collective .229/.294/.342 at the position last year. Considering how much of that came from Jerry Hairston Jr, who's defense at SS, was lacking to say the least, the Reds desperately needing options for 2010. Unless you can rely on Janish for 600+ PA, and I wouldn't, you're left with Cozart as your next in line. And while I like the guy and think he could be our starter in 2011, I'm not sure I want him getting PA in 2010. Consider that a good portion of Cabrera’s value isn’t going to come from him being an upgrade over Janish as the starter, but from Janish as the other alternatives as a backup. The Reds are quite shallow at the ML level at SS and put up a collective .229/.294/.342 at the position last year.

Considering how much of that came from Jerry Hairston Jr, who’s defense at SS, was lacking to say the least, the Reds desperately needing options for 2010.

Unless you can rely on Janish for 600+ PA, and I wouldn’t, you’re left with Cozart as your next in line. And while I like the guy and think he could be our starter in 2011, I’m not sure I want him getting PA in 2010.

]]> By: 757690 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127182 757690 Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:22:21 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127182 The key to this deal is that Cabrera is not just replacing Janish as starting SS, but then having Janish replace Rosales (even before his trade) as backup. The Reds before signing Cabrera had no true SS to backup Janish in 2010. So this signing is more about the Reds adding depth, than it is about adding a starting SS. Even if Cabrera is worth the same as Janish as a starter, I think it clearly is worth it to add a real backup SS to the roster, which is essentially what the Reds did. And remember, the Reds were at their limit in terms of payflex, hence the trade of Taveras to make this signing possible, so really, the money doesn't make any difference. They can't sign any more players above league minimum no matter what Cabrera got, so the only real question was whether Cabrera was the best guy to spend this money. The key to this deal is that Cabrera is not just replacing Janish as starting SS, but then having Janish replace Rosales (even before his trade) as backup. The Reds before signing Cabrera had no true SS to backup Janish in 2010. So this signing is more about the Reds adding depth, than it is about adding a starting SS. Even if Cabrera is worth the same as Janish as a starter, I think it clearly is worth it to add a real backup SS to the roster, which is essentially what the Reds did.

And remember, the Reds were at their limit in terms of payflex, hence the trade of Taveras to make this signing possible, so really, the money doesn’t make any difference. They can’t sign any more players above league minimum no matter what Cabrera got, so the only real question was whether Cabrera was the best guy to spend this money.

]]> By: walkoffblast http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127151 walkoffblast Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:02:24 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127151 If it is a bad deal unless Cabrera is still a significant plus defender at SS then it is a bad deal. We take CHONE's reasonable +5 for Janish and ignore his -15 for Cabrera? Sure there is a chance that Cabrera has a 3 WAR season but it seems remote at this point. Is that off-chance really worth the resources? It looks a lot like the Reds just paid 4 mil (1.5 of which they had to give upfront) for a .5 WAR upgrade if they are lucky. Even if you like their roster they could save the money and do better with an upgrade IF they are contending later. If it is a bad deal unless Cabrera is still a significant plus defender at SS then it is a bad deal. We take CHONE’s reasonable +5 for Janish and ignore his -15 for Cabrera? Sure there is a chance that Cabrera has a 3 WAR season but it seems remote at this point. Is that off-chance really worth the resources? It looks a lot like the Reds just paid 4 mil (1.5 of which they had to give upfront) for a .5 WAR upgrade if they are lucky. Even if you like their roster they could save the money and do better with an upgrade IF they are contending later.

]]> By: NEPP http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127141 NEPP Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:06:54 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127141 Hopefully Dusty Baker is able to get his hands on some more young pitching prospects and "stretch" them out to 250-300 IP. Hopefully Dusty Baker is able to get his hands on some more young pitching prospects and “stretch” them out to 250-300 IP.

]]> By: Jason461 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127136 Jason461 Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:24:31 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127136 If they don't screw it up, the Reds could be good for a while. They have a nice farm system that should start producing this year, and really kick in next year. If they don’t screw it up, the Reds could be good for a while. They have a nice farm system that should start producing this year, and really kick in next year.

]]> By: NEPP http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127132 NEPP Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:02:08 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127132 The regression could also simply be statistical noise...UZR can flucuate wildly from year to year...which is why its always best to use a 3 year average. Could also be age related regression... The regression could also simply be statistical noise…UZR can flucuate wildly from year to year…which is why its always best to use a 3 year average.

Could also be age related regression…

]]> By: Joe R http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127131 Joe R Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:00:35 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127131 Then again, the Reds have a decent roster in 2010, combined with a weak division. Oh God, we may be in for 6 months of Dusty magic. Then again, the Reds have a decent roster in 2010, combined with a weak division.

Oh God, we may be in for 6 months of Dusty magic.

]]> By: Joe R http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127130 Joe R Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:58:06 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127130 Of course we can always hope that this season is a disaster, the Reds decide Baker is a moron, and he disappears into the abyss forever among managers. I think many Reds fans would take one more bad season to rid themselves of Baker. Of course we can always hope that this season is a disaster, the Reds decide Baker is a moron, and he disappears into the abyss forever among managers.

I think many Reds fans would take one more bad season to rid themselves of Baker.

]]> By: Mike http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/orlando-to-cincinnati/#comment-127128 Mike Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:50:33 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=15473#comment-127128 Maybe I'm missing something, but Cabrera's value (if he ever had much, and I'd suggest he never had as much as he was paid for on past contracts) was almost entirely driven by his defensive reputation and durability. It would seem to me that such a large decrease in his UZR performance last year in a large single season sample size would indicate regression at best; and complete implosion at worst. Given his age and wear and tear, i'd be inclined to believe the implosion is at least possible. If he can't play defense he is a useless ml player. In a vacuum, the contract isn't much, but when compared to the alternatives it seems absurd. Janish is almost certain to be (much) better defensively; likely at least enough better to compensate for however much worse he is offensively, even in a vacuum. The fact, also, is that the difference in how they will be utilized (the Reds have announced that Cabrera will hit 2nd full-time, and Janish would have hit 8th and been pinch hit for often) makes the offensive difference less. Factor in that although Cabrera's contract wasn't much, it's still $3.02M guaranteed (unless they move him), and this is about 7.5 times more than Janish will make (likely around $.4M) and this seems like an extremely wasteful use of resources. To say nothing of the need to free up the payroll room to accomodate the contract cost them Adam Rosales, a player that is still young and has a future and a successful minor league resume. This is before we even talk control of Rosales or the development of Janish, who is still only 27 himself, the age at which many players 'break out'. $3M here and there adds up for a mid-level market like Cincinnatti. The Willy Taveras deal last year on the face of it was not for an incredibly large dollar amount, but case in point; perhaps the best (maybe only) positive of this whole situation to me seems to be the shedding of Taveras and unblocking of a roster spot for a young outfielder. The Reds to me seem caught in between a full rebuild and trying to sneak in as a WC contender and the loss of financial resources and players in an attempt to compete before the rebuilt core is ready will only serve to siphen off the depth that is on display in, say, the Rays young ML core and ML ready prospects. Shame on Walt Jocketty for buying into Orlando Cabrera's defensive reputation and not placing more reliance on recent actual performance and age trending. Maybe I’m missing something, but Cabrera’s value (if he ever had much, and I’d suggest he never had as much as he was paid for on past contracts) was almost entirely driven by his defensive reputation and durability. It would seem to me that such a large decrease in his UZR performance last year in a large single season sample size would indicate regression at best; and complete implosion at worst. Given his age and wear and tear, i’d be inclined to believe the implosion is at least possible. If he can’t play defense he is a useless ml player. In a vacuum, the contract isn’t much, but when compared to the alternatives it seems absurd. Janish is almost certain to be (much) better defensively; likely at least enough better to compensate for however much worse he is offensively, even in a vacuum. The fact, also, is that the difference in how they will be utilized (the Reds have announced that Cabrera will hit 2nd full-time, and Janish would have hit 8th and been pinch hit for often) makes the offensive difference less. Factor in that although Cabrera’s contract wasn’t much, it’s still $3.02M guaranteed (unless they move him), and this is about 7.5 times more than Janish will make (likely around $.4M) and this seems like an extremely wasteful use of resources. To say nothing of the need to free up the payroll room to accomodate the contract cost them Adam Rosales, a player that is still young and has a future and a successful minor league resume. This is before we even talk control of Rosales or the development of Janish, who is still only 27 himself, the age at which many players ‘break out’. $3M here and there adds up for a mid-level market like Cincinnatti. The Willy Taveras deal last year on the face of it was not for an incredibly large dollar amount, but case in point; perhaps the best (maybe only) positive of this whole situation to me seems to be the shedding of Taveras and unblocking of a roster spot for a young outfielder. The Reds to me seem caught in between a full rebuild and trying to sneak in as a WC contender and the loss of financial resources and players in an attempt to compete before the rebuilt core is ready will only serve to siphen off the depth that is on display in, say, the Rays young ML core and ML ready prospects. Shame on Walt Jocketty for buying into Orlando Cabrera’s defensive reputation and not placing more reliance on recent actual performance and age trending.

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