Comments on: Shoppach to the Rays http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/ Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:52:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: The Real Neal http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-111500 The Real Neal Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:52:12 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-111500 You should have stopped with "I have no idea". What I am successfully arguing is that this statment: "He’s likely to be worth $7 to $9 million next year" is false. Do you know what non sequitur means, or do you just like to throw it around hoping that it makes you sound informed? You should have stopped with “I have no idea”.

What I am successfully arguing is that this statment:

“He’s likely to be worth $7 to $9 million next year”

is false.

Do you know what non sequitur means, or do you just like to throw it around hoping that it makes you sound informed?

]]> By: The Real Neal http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-111499 The Real Neal Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:49:33 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-111499 Thank you so much, master, for allowing me this time to reply to your comment. I can only thank the creators of the universes, various and sundry, that your benevolence has chose to shine its most holy light in my direction. Why do you keep replying, without answering any questions? Are you too lazy? Or do you realize that you don't have valid answers? I gave you a straight forward yes/no question that you refused to answer last time, let's try another one. Is there any reason to base the valuation on "free agent values" rather than rookie salaries? Thank you so much, master, for allowing me this time to reply to your comment. I can only thank the creators of the universes, various and sundry, that your benevolence has chose to shine its most holy light in my direction.

Why do you keep replying, without answering any questions?

Are you too lazy? Or do you realize that you don’t have valid answers?

I gave you a straight forward yes/no question that you refused to answer last time, let’s try another one.

Is there any reason to base the valuation on “free agent values” rather than rookie salaries?

]]> By: The Real Neal http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-111498 The Real Neal Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:46:19 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-111498 The evidence that the player valuation model is flawed is self-evident. Add up all the player valuations. Then add up all the player salaries and see if there's a difference. The evidence that the player valuation model is flawed is self-evident. Add up all the player valuations. Then add up all the player salaries and see if there’s a difference.

]]> By: drew http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-111039 drew Thu, 03 Dec 2009 05:55:07 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-111039 I've watched Shoppach a decent bit and the one thing where I think Dave might be off is suggesting that Shoppach won't have a split issue. He really struggles with breaking pitches. He's an out waiting to happen when he faces a righty with decent slider. I’ve watched Shoppach a decent bit and the one thing where I think Dave might be off is suggesting that Shoppach won’t have a split issue. He really struggles with breaking pitches. He’s an out waiting to happen when he faces a righty with decent slider.

]]> By: djw http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-110945 djw Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:52:49 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-110945 This whole post, but the last paragraph in particular, is just a string of non-sequitors. I have no idea what you're actually trying to argue. This whole post, but the last paragraph in particular, is just a string of non-sequitors. I have no idea what you’re actually trying to argue.

]]> By: djw http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-110944 djw Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:50:10 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-110944 Real Neal, <i>If baseball was a totally free market. Each player signed contracts for only one year, and had free agency granted every year.</i> If your idea of a perfect free market makes bans multiyear contracts, I'm afraid that means your even more confused about the meaning of the phrase 'free market' than you are about wOBA. Real Neal,

If baseball was a totally free market. Each player signed contracts for only one year, and had free agency granted every year.

If your idea of a perfect free market makes bans multiyear contracts, I’m afraid that means your even more confused about the meaning of the phrase ‘free market’ than you are about wOBA.

]]> By: djw http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-110942 djw Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:46:27 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-110942 See also Biggio, Craig. See also Biggio, Craig.

]]> By: Dave Cameron http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-110923 Dave Cameron Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:50:38 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-110923 I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you. If you want to understand the metrics, take a humble tone and ask for help. Until then, you're wallowing in ignorance. I have no interest in getting into a pissing match with you. If you want to understand the metrics, take a humble tone and ask for help. Until then, you’re wallowing in ignorance.

]]> By: Brent http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-110909 Brent Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:54:32 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-110909 You're accusing Dave of not understanding supply and demand and then asking if Shoppach would get an $8 million contract in a ridiculously artificial situation in which every player were a free agent? And that's supposed to be evidence that their player valuation model is flawed? You’re accusing Dave of not understanding supply and demand and then asking if Shoppach would get an $8 million contract in a ridiculously artificial situation in which every player were a free agent? And that’s supposed to be evidence that their player valuation model is flawed?

]]> By: The Real Neal http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/shoppach-to-the-rays/#comment-110894 The Real Neal Wed, 02 Dec 2009 18:01:15 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=12263#comment-110894 Dave, Very mature. I quoted from your explanation of the dollar values that you're applying to players. Which part of that did I not understand? Then I used sound logic to explain how your underlying assumptions are incorrect. So I have evidence and logic on my side, and you give an ad hominem and irrelevant response. If you don't understand what I said, ask for clarification. Answer this simple question: If every GM evaluated players solely using the metrics that you support and every player was a free agent during this off-season, Kelly Shoppach would get an $8 million contract? If the answer is no, then what does your player value represent? If the answer is yes, then do you really think that MLB teams would have an average payroll of $150 million in such an environment? Because that's clearly flawed. You're discounting all the money that MLB teams lose on players who never make it to the majors, or make it to the majors and contribute sub- replacement values. Owners pay a lot of money to get 6 years pre-free agency 'value' from players. Scouts, front offices, coaches, signing bonuses, spring and fall training facilities, administration, legal and probably a dozen other costs that I can't think of off the top of my head are all paid for by the "value" that they get from 1 productive rookie. Dave,

Very mature. I quoted from your explanation of the dollar values that you’re applying to players. Which part of that did I not understand? Then I used sound logic to explain how your underlying assumptions are incorrect. So I have evidence and logic on my side, and you give an ad hominem and irrelevant response. If you don’t understand what I said, ask for clarification.

Answer this simple question:

If every GM evaluated players solely using the metrics that you support and every player was a free agent during this off-season, Kelly Shoppach would get an $8 million contract?

If the answer is no, then what does your player value represent? If the answer is yes, then do you really think that MLB teams would have an average payroll of $150 million in such an environment? Because that’s clearly flawed. You’re discounting all the money that MLB teams lose on players who never make it to the majors, or make it to the majors and contribute sub- replacement values. Owners pay a lot of money to get 6 years pre-free agency ‘value’ from players. Scouts, front offices, coaches, signing bonuses, spring and fall training facilities, administration, legal and probably a dozen other costs that I can’t think of off the top of my head are all paid for by the “value” that they get from 1 productive rookie.

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