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	<title>Comments on: Should Lidge Have Thrown More Sliders to Tex and A-Rod?</title>
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	<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/</link>
	<description>Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 01:42:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Jesse</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105813</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105813</guid>
		<description>no worries, glad to see we agree on it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no worries, glad to see we agree on it!</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105788</link>
		<dc:creator>MGL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105788</guid>
		<description>&quot;guess what I took issue with from the original article (and thanks for writing it by the way) was that you closed it with “I have no idea and neither should you.”

Right, I should have said that we can never be 100% certain whether he was making a mistake or not, but given the Bayesian problem I described in my last post, it was probably much more likely that he made a mistake than that he just happened to throw 4 fastballs in a row of whatever it was.  I definitely stand corrected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;guess what I took issue with from the original article (and thanks for writing it by the way) was that you closed it with “I have no idea and neither should you.”</p>
<p>Right, I should have said that we can never be 100% certain whether he was making a mistake or not, but given the Bayesian problem I described in my last post, it was probably much more likely that he made a mistake than that he just happened to throw 4 fastballs in a row of whatever it was.  I definitely stand corrected.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesse</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105769</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105769</guid>
		<description>mgl -- I agree with you that it&#039;s theoretically possible that Lidge wasn&#039;t avoiding the slider at all costs, but I would say the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that he was.  I guess what I took issue with from the original article (and thanks for writing it by the way) was that you closed it with &quot;I have no idea and neither should you.&quot;  I think we can probably agree that it&#039;s incredibly unlikely that the probability of Lidge throwing a slider on any given pitch was anywhere near as high as it should have been.

If he was planning to throw the slider once every four pitches, there would still only be a 10% chance of him throwing eight straight fastballs, and I think he probably should have thrown it more frequently than that, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mgl &#8212; I agree with you that it&#8217;s theoretically possible that Lidge wasn&#8217;t avoiding the slider at all costs, but I would say the evidence overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that he was.  I guess what I took issue with from the original article (and thanks for writing it by the way) was that you closed it with &#8220;I have no idea and neither should you.&#8221;  I think we can probably agree that it&#8217;s incredibly unlikely that the probability of Lidge throwing a slider on any given pitch was anywhere near as high as it should have been.</p>
<p>If he was planning to throw the slider once every four pitches, there would still only be a 10% chance of him throwing eight straight fastballs, and I think he probably should have thrown it more frequently than that, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: intricatenick</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105751</link>
		<dc:creator>intricatenick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105751</guid>
		<description>Like in all minimax debates - this valuation assumes the situation is at equilibrium. A scientific analogy is dissolved CO2 concentration in soda versus its pH. The only way to solve the simultaneuous equations is to assume a state of equilibrium has been reached. There is no way to prove the equilibrium exists - it must be assumed. The word &quot;optimal&quot; is something of a useful fiction like &quot;true talent level&quot;. 

It&#039;s a fiction because you can&#039;t measure it - your measurements imply it. In physics, this equates to things like &quot;centrifugal forces&quot;, which only arise due to the setting of reference frames.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like in all minimax debates &#8211; this valuation assumes the situation is at equilibrium. A scientific analogy is dissolved CO2 concentration in soda versus its pH. The only way to solve the simultaneuous equations is to assume a state of equilibrium has been reached. There is no way to prove the equilibrium exists &#8211; it must be assumed. The word &#8220;optimal&#8221; is something of a useful fiction like &#8220;true talent level&#8221;. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a fiction because you can&#8217;t measure it &#8211; your measurements imply it. In physics, this equates to things like &#8220;centrifugal forces&#8221;, which only arise due to the setting of reference frames.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105749</link>
		<dc:creator>MGL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105749</guid>
		<description>The best way to think of a &quot;random&quot; word is to look around you and choose an object.  The problem of course is that you have to randomize each pitch around  a certain mean which changes from pitch to pitch.  That is not an easy task to say the least.  You are almost better off not randomizing and just throwing the 70% (or whatever the number is) a lot, and then just mixing in some other pitches to the best of your ability.

Jesse, my 2-1 ratio was just for illustration purposes and had nothing to do with Lidge or A-Rod.  The correct ratio versus A-Rod might be 3-2 slider with no one on third base and 1-1 with a runner on third.  Whatever it is, one sequence that is POSSIBLE if he is throwing optimally and adhering to the correct numbers whether they are 1-1 or 3-1 (in favor of a slider) is 4 fastballs in a row or 8 fastballs in a row.  Eventually in similar situations (given enough of those situations), he will throw 8 fastballs in a row (even though that is exceedingly unlikely in any one situation) without it being a mistake.  That was my point.

However, I should have said, given your point, that if we see a pitcher throw a sequence that is unlikely, given the fact that we know that pitchers DO make mistakes and do not always use optimal strategies, it is much more likely that he was not using the proper percentages and did in fact make a &quot;mistake.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best way to think of a &#8220;random&#8221; word is to look around you and choose an object.  The problem of course is that you have to randomize each pitch around  a certain mean which changes from pitch to pitch.  That is not an easy task to say the least.  You are almost better off not randomizing and just throwing the 70% (or whatever the number is) a lot, and then just mixing in some other pitches to the best of your ability.</p>
<p>Jesse, my 2-1 ratio was just for illustration purposes and had nothing to do with Lidge or A-Rod.  The correct ratio versus A-Rod might be 3-2 slider with no one on third base and 1-1 with a runner on third.  Whatever it is, one sequence that is POSSIBLE if he is throwing optimally and adhering to the correct numbers whether they are 1-1 or 3-1 (in favor of a slider) is 4 fastballs in a row or 8 fastballs in a row.  Eventually in similar situations (given enough of those situations), he will throw 8 fastballs in a row (even though that is exceedingly unlikely in any one situation) without it being a mistake.  That was my point.</p>
<p>However, I should have said, given your point, that if we see a pitcher throw a sequence that is unlikely, given the fact that we know that pitchers DO make mistakes and do not always use optimal strategies, it is much more likely that he was not using the proper percentages and did in fact make a &#8220;mistake.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: PhD Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105744</link>
		<dc:creator>PhD Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105744</guid>
		<description>No he is not.  The ratio of sliders to fastballs adjusts with the batters abilities.  If Tex kills fastballs then you throw him fewer fastballs, but you do not stop throwing him fastballs.  Almost every player in baseball kills a pitch if they know it is coming.  If Tex knows Lidge is always going to throw a slider (100%), then it probably does not matter how good a slider lidge can throw because Tex will hit it nearly every time.  Accordingly, if Tex is 100% certain Lidge will never throw him a fastball, then even the worst thrown fastball becomes a decent pitch.

Pascuel Perez was not the best pitcher ever, but he used to throw this weird lob of a pitch like once a game that really embarrassed hitters.  I forget what the pitch was called.  But it looked like a pitch any 3rd grader could hit out of the park, but since it usually came at a totally unexpected time the batter would just take it almost every time.  Perez could throw a low 90s fastball for a strike, and would over and over.  then he would lob that weird third grade batting practice pitch and the batter would just stand there.  It always made me laugh.  Problem with perez is sometimes he fell in love with making batters look stupid and he would sometimes throw that pitch a second or third time in the game.  If he did then it was treated the way it deserved and boom!  The pitch only worked because it was a complete surprise.  As soon as one guy was embarrassed all the other players would keep an eye open for it and kill it.  Moral: a third grade batting practice pitch can be very effective if thrown about 1% of the time. On the flipside, almost no pitch is effective if major league players know you will throw it every single time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No he is not.  The ratio of sliders to fastballs adjusts with the batters abilities.  If Tex kills fastballs then you throw him fewer fastballs, but you do not stop throwing him fastballs.  Almost every player in baseball kills a pitch if they know it is coming.  If Tex knows Lidge is always going to throw a slider (100%), then it probably does not matter how good a slider lidge can throw because Tex will hit it nearly every time.  Accordingly, if Tex is 100% certain Lidge will never throw him a fastball, then even the worst thrown fastball becomes a decent pitch.</p>
<p>Pascuel Perez was not the best pitcher ever, but he used to throw this weird lob of a pitch like once a game that really embarrassed hitters.  I forget what the pitch was called.  But it looked like a pitch any 3rd grader could hit out of the park, but since it usually came at a totally unexpected time the batter would just take it almost every time.  Perez could throw a low 90s fastball for a strike, and would over and over.  then he would lob that weird third grade batting practice pitch and the batter would just stand there.  It always made me laugh.  Problem with perez is sometimes he fell in love with making batters look stupid and he would sometimes throw that pitch a second or third time in the game.  If he did then it was treated the way it deserved and boom!  The pitch only worked because it was a complete surprise.  As soon as one guy was embarrassed all the other players would keep an eye open for it and kill it.  Moral: a third grade batting practice pitch can be very effective if thrown about 1% of the time. On the flipside, almost no pitch is effective if major league players know you will throw it every single time.</p>
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		<title>By: neuter_your_dogma</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105734</link>
		<dc:creator>neuter_your_dogma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 19:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105734</guid>
		<description>Are any of us truely able to think a random word?  I tried, and the only word I keep seeing is &quot;slider.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are any of us truely able to think a random word?  I tried, and the only word I keep seeing is &#8220;slider.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Oscar</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105675</link>
		<dc:creator>Oscar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 15:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105675</guid>
		<description>I would LOVE to see a pitcher try to truly randomize their pitch selection. Find some linguistic example: for example, make a rule that before every pitch, you choose a word &quot;at random&quot;. If the third letter is a vowel or y, you throw a slider, otherwise fastball. That&#039;s close to 30%, and it&#039;s hard to subconsciously choose a word based on its third letter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would LOVE to see a pitcher try to truly randomize their pitch selection. Find some linguistic example: for example, make a rule that before every pitch, you choose a word &#8220;at random&#8221;. If the third letter is a vowel or y, you throw a slider, otherwise fastball. That&#8217;s close to 30%, and it&#8217;s hard to subconsciously choose a word based on its third letter.</p>
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		<title>By: neuter_your_dogma</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105659</link>
		<dc:creator>neuter_your_dogma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105659</guid>
		<description>One thing we can agree on - Lidge threw Tex and A-Rod too many hittable fastballs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing we can agree on &#8211; Lidge threw Tex and A-Rod too many hittable fastballs.</p>
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		<title>By: TheUnrepentantGunner</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/should-lidge-have-thrown-more-sliders/#comment-105652</link>
		<dc:creator>TheUnrepentantGunner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 13:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=10927#comment-105652</guid>
		<description>Max: i think you are on to something. Most of what Michael Lichtman is writing supposes that you are assuming the batter is savvy, or at the very least is giving nothing away with his stance. 

There are some cues though that maybe make the entire discussion completely irrelevant, such as the batter maybe moving up 18 inches in the box. Now if the batter is only mildly sophisticated, this will tell you something. Namely, that he is struggling to hit your splitter/sinker etc, and may well be expecting another one. This of course is an excellent time to throw a fastball. 

Now if the hitter is truly sophisticated, they may step up, knowing that the pitcher might know what that means, and then sit fastball. Alternately through film study you could see other decisive tendencies in batters, and at least take a chance that the batter won&#039;t change their approach. 

It all reminds me of the Simpsons, when Bart plays Rock Paper Scissors, confidently thinking that &quot;nothing beats rock&quot;. Lisa of course is thinking &quot;bart always throws rock&quot;

In situations like that, you can throw your randomized probabilities, if you had them, out the window.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max: i think you are on to something. Most of what Michael Lichtman is writing supposes that you are assuming the batter is savvy, or at the very least is giving nothing away with his stance. </p>
<p>There are some cues though that maybe make the entire discussion completely irrelevant, such as the batter maybe moving up 18 inches in the box. Now if the batter is only mildly sophisticated, this will tell you something. Namely, that he is struggling to hit your splitter/sinker etc, and may well be expecting another one. This of course is an excellent time to throw a fastball. </p>
<p>Now if the hitter is truly sophisticated, they may step up, knowing that the pitcher might know what that means, and then sit fastball. Alternately through film study you could see other decisive tendencies in batters, and at least take a chance that the batter won&#8217;t change their approach. </p>
<p>It all reminds me of the Simpsons, when Bart plays Rock Paper Scissors, confidently thinking that &#8220;nothing beats rock&#8221;. Lisa of course is thinking &#8220;bart always throws rock&#8221;</p>
<p>In situations like that, you can throw your randomized probabilities, if you had them, out the window.</p>
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