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	<title>Comments on: Staring Down the Sinkerballers, Part Two</title>
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	<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/</link>
	<description>Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Bryan Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123766</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123766</guid>
		<description>Jeremiah: I think I&#039;m using DIPS theory in direct conjunction with DER, because I&#039;m saying a pitcher that can&#039;t control his balls in play in Low-A is going to have less turned into outs than one that can&#039;t control them in the MLB. But to your first question, it&#039;s the latter -- groundball pitchers are commodities because groundballs are turned to outs a lot and become home runs never.

A sinker is generally a mis-nomer, as usually we are talking about guys that get good sink on their two-seam fastball, and command it well down in the zone. Some players grip the ball in a couple different ways, but thinking about my sample, I believe most of those guys just throw &quot;heavy&quot; two-seam fastballs.

The reason you hear about the tired thing is because, with some of the guys, throwing harder flattens the pitch out. If they have nice, easy arm action, their grip and their motion does the sinking for them. If they rear back and throw hard, it flattens out a bit. I&#039;m not sure how true this is (I feel like someone did a pitch F/X study of this, but I can&#039;t find it), but it&#039;s certainly an ardent belief of coaches ... and thus, commentators.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremiah: I think I&#8217;m using DIPS theory in direct conjunction with DER, because I&#8217;m saying a pitcher that can&#8217;t control his balls in play in Low-A is going to have less turned into outs than one that can&#8217;t control them in the MLB. But to your first question, it&#8217;s the latter &#8212; groundball pitchers are commodities because groundballs are turned to outs a lot and become home runs never.</p>
<p>A sinker is generally a mis-nomer, as usually we are talking about guys that get good sink on their two-seam fastball, and command it well down in the zone. Some players grip the ball in a couple different ways, but thinking about my sample, I believe most of those guys just throw &#8220;heavy&#8221; two-seam fastballs.</p>
<p>The reason you hear about the tired thing is because, with some of the guys, throwing harder flattens the pitch out. If they have nice, easy arm action, their grip and their motion does the sinking for them. If they rear back and throw hard, it flattens out a bit. I&#8217;m not sure how true this is (I feel like someone did a pitch F/X study of this, but I can&#8217;t find it), but it&#8217;s certainly an ardent belief of coaches &#8230; and thus, commentators.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123753</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123753</guid>
		<description>I agree that sinker pitchers are underrated, I guess I just don&#039;t understand how the DIPS theory relates to ground ball pitchers.  Does the value of a pitcher who relies primarily on sinkers come from allowing fewer extra base hits, or is it that he will actually have more of the balls put in play turned into outs because those balls are typically hit on the ground, and therefore easier to field?

Also, perhaps you can answer a few of my questions about sinkers.  What is the difference between a sinker and a fastball that is down in the zone consistently?  And why is it that I have heard commentators say that a sinker has more &quot;sink&quot; when the pitcher&#039;s arm gets tired?

Thanks for the great info.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that sinker pitchers are underrated, I guess I just don&#8217;t understand how the DIPS theory relates to ground ball pitchers.  Does the value of a pitcher who relies primarily on sinkers come from allowing fewer extra base hits, or is it that he will actually have more of the balls put in play turned into outs because those balls are typically hit on the ground, and therefore easier to field?</p>
<p>Also, perhaps you can answer a few of my questions about sinkers.  What is the difference between a sinker and a fastball that is down in the zone consistently?  And why is it that I have heard commentators say that a sinker has more &#8220;sink&#8221; when the pitcher&#8217;s arm gets tired?</p>
<p>Thanks for the great info.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123751</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 15:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123751</guid>
		<description>Very interesting stuff, Brian. I certainly don&#039;t think you should attribute all the change in FB DER to the batters, but it&#039;s part of it. Your hypothesis about the more powerful players being promoted is generally correct, and let&#039;s not forget that a lot of these players don&#039;t develop power until their mid 20s.

I also think a reason you&#039;re seeing those numbers is backspin. This is a skill that a lot of these players have barely heard of before professional baseball, but one that is preached to them constantly by hitting coaches. Backspin, as my tennis playing comrades can tell you, will make the ball go further than hitting the ball with topspin, and makes home runs more likely. It also, though, will keep the ball in the air longer, so if the ball doesn&#039;t go over the fence, it&#039;s probably easier to catch. I think these players learning and applying backspin as they progress up the minors might be reflected in your numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting stuff, Brian. I certainly don&#8217;t think you should attribute all the change in FB DER to the batters, but it&#8217;s part of it. Your hypothesis about the more powerful players being promoted is generally correct, and let&#8217;s not forget that a lot of these players don&#8217;t develop power until their mid 20s.</p>
<p>I also think a reason you&#8217;re seeing those numbers is backspin. This is a skill that a lot of these players have barely heard of before professional baseball, but one that is preached to them constantly by hitting coaches. Backspin, as my tennis playing comrades can tell you, will make the ball go further than hitting the ball with topspin, and makes home runs more likely. It also, though, will keep the ball in the air longer, so if the ball doesn&#8217;t go over the fence, it&#8217;s probably easier to catch. I think these players learning and applying backspin as they progress up the minors might be reflected in your numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: ToddM</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123700</link>
		<dc:creator>ToddM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 09:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123700</guid>
		<description>Sounds reasonable to me, although guys that have a large FBH% don&#039;t seem to be unfairly looked over for promotion -- one thing personnel directors seem to look for in determining minor league promotions is extra base hits in general, and a guy with a higher FBH% is likely to have more doubles and triples to compensate for a lower number of homers.

As for bunts, oops on me.  If the same % of ground balls make it to the outfield for hits, but a much lower percentage of grounders are turned into outs (from division I&#039;s 61% to minors 64-66% to majors 69%), then yeah, we&#039;re looking at errors and infield hits of all varieties.  The hard charge from third and the throw from deep in the hole at short are difficult, and you definitely see a much lower % of Zimmermans and Furcals in the minors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds reasonable to me, although guys that have a large FBH% don&#8217;t seem to be unfairly looked over for promotion &#8212; one thing personnel directors seem to look for in determining minor league promotions is extra base hits in general, and a guy with a higher FBH% is likely to have more doubles and triples to compensate for a lower number of homers.</p>
<p>As for bunts, oops on me.  If the same % of ground balls make it to the outfield for hits, but a much lower percentage of grounders are turned into outs (from division I&#8217;s 61% to minors 64-66% to majors 69%), then yeah, we&#8217;re looking at errors and infield hits of all varieties.  The hard charge from third and the throw from deep in the hole at short are difficult, and you definitely see a much lower % of Zimmermans and Furcals in the minors.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cartwright</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123696</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cartwright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123696</guid>
		<description>As you climb from the low minors up to MLB, the HR% increases while the FBH% decreases. The high HR, low FBH balls have a higher vertical angle, while low HR, high FBH balls have a lower angle. HRs avg about 32 degress, according to Hit Tracker, while the April 2009 Hit f/x sample shows 12-13 degress as the highest rate of hits.

My hypothesis is that if you have two roughly equal batters in A ball, the one with more HRs (higher vertical angle) gets promoted. Therefor the outfielder in MLB and the high minors is not chasing the same type of FBs that the outfielders in the low minors are.

I plan on testing this by looking at the FBH% of batters who have been promoted to see if their rates as batters change or are stable as they are promoted, and if the guys with the higher FBH% tend to not get promoted.

On the GBs, I wasn&#039;t talking about bunt hits. Infield grounders where the batter is safe at 1b can be scored as either an error or an IFH, depending on the judgement of the scorer. Therefor, I like to lump them together as a measure of the infielder&#039;s &#039;hands&#039;. What I do know for sure is what pct of infield grounders the defender converted into an out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you climb from the low minors up to MLB, the HR% increases while the FBH% decreases. The high HR, low FBH balls have a higher vertical angle, while low HR, high FBH balls have a lower angle. HRs avg about 32 degress, according to Hit Tracker, while the April 2009 Hit f/x sample shows 12-13 degress as the highest rate of hits.</p>
<p>My hypothesis is that if you have two roughly equal batters in A ball, the one with more HRs (higher vertical angle) gets promoted. Therefor the outfielder in MLB and the high minors is not chasing the same type of FBs that the outfielders in the low minors are.</p>
<p>I plan on testing this by looking at the FBH% of batters who have been promoted to see if their rates as batters change or are stable as they are promoted, and if the guys with the higher FBH% tend to not get promoted.</p>
<p>On the GBs, I wasn&#8217;t talking about bunt hits. Infield grounders where the batter is safe at 1b can be scored as either an error or an IFH, depending on the judgement of the scorer. Therefor, I like to lump them together as a measure of the infielder&#8217;s &#8216;hands&#8217;. What I do know for sure is what pct of infield grounders the defender converted into an out.</p>
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		<title>By: ToddM</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123676</link>
		<dc:creator>ToddM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 07:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123676</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a helluva good question.  My completely unsubstantiated theory:

The infield data makes sense without much too much thought.  Younger players tend to have better range (but less awareness and positioning) and &quot;clankier&quot; gloves, especially in the lower minors.  Hitting grounders for base hits is not a skill, and thus remains constant.  Bunting for hits certainly is a skill, although one wonders why hitters would be ahead of fielders early on.

As for fly ball rates, that&#039;s a tougher one.  Certainly, tracking the more difficult flies gets polished as a player ages (up until physical limitations set in), but that&#039;s probably not it.

My guess involves higher K rates in the low minors -- the lack of plate discipline and adjustment to wooden bats tends to favor the pitchers early on, so fewer batted balls are getting to the outfield.  The flies-closer-to-LDs you mention is probably true, so the balls that DO make it out there tend to be hit more solidly, i.e. less can-o-corns and more ropes to the gap.

I&#039;m not sold on that last explanation, though.  Could it really be as simple as that?  Good high heat and movement that turns into fly outs at the major league level is more likely to be a K in the minors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a helluva good question.  My completely unsubstantiated theory:</p>
<p>The infield data makes sense without much too much thought.  Younger players tend to have better range (but less awareness and positioning) and &#8220;clankier&#8221; gloves, especially in the lower minors.  Hitting grounders for base hits is not a skill, and thus remains constant.  Bunting for hits certainly is a skill, although one wonders why hitters would be ahead of fielders early on.</p>
<p>As for fly ball rates, that&#8217;s a tougher one.  Certainly, tracking the more difficult flies gets polished as a player ages (up until physical limitations set in), but that&#8217;s probably not it.</p>
<p>My guess involves higher K rates in the low minors &#8212; the lack of plate discipline and adjustment to wooden bats tends to favor the pitchers early on, so fewer batted balls are getting to the outfield.  The flies-closer-to-LDs you mention is probably true, so the balls that DO make it out there tend to be hit more solidly, i.e. less can-o-corns and more ropes to the gap.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sold on that last explanation, though.  Could it really be as simple as that?  Good high heat and movement that turns into fly outs at the major league level is more likely to be a K in the minors?</p>
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		<title>By: ToddM</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123674</link>
		<dc:creator>ToddM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123674</guid>
		<description>Awesome indeed, Bryan.

Keep it coming.

As for Porcello, he&#039;s going to need to get significantly better next year just to stay the same, as the difference between Polanco and his replacement (be it Scott Sizemore, Ramon Santiago, or someone else) is likely to hurt him, badly.  The guy was a rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome indeed, Bryan.</p>
<p>Keep it coming.</p>
<p>As for Porcello, he&#8217;s going to need to get significantly better next year just to stay the same, as the difference between Polanco and his replacement (be it Scott Sizemore, Ramon Santiago, or someone else) is likely to hurt him, badly.  The guy was a rock.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cartwright</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123673</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cartwright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 06:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123673</guid>
		<description>One thing that surprised me was that at almost every level of the minors and MLB, just about 18% of groundballs went to the outfield for base hits. This would suggest that there&#039;s not much difference in infielder&#039;s range. However, infield hits and ROEs consistently increase as you go lower into the minors.

The second thing was that even though ground ball hit rates were very stable, fly ball hit rates in MLB are only about half of what they are in Rookie ball (17% to 35%). If infielder&#039;s range doesn&#039;t change, why does it for the outfielders? High fly ball hit rates suggest lower vertical angles (more towards LDs and away from popups), but there&#039;s probably a bias towards advancing HR hitters, who hit the ball higher in the air and are easier to catch. So here, the difference is likely in the batters and not the outfielders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that surprised me was that at almost every level of the minors and MLB, just about 18% of groundballs went to the outfield for base hits. This would suggest that there&#8217;s not much difference in infielder&#8217;s range. However, infield hits and ROEs consistently increase as you go lower into the minors.</p>
<p>The second thing was that even though ground ball hit rates were very stable, fly ball hit rates in MLB are only about half of what they are in Rookie ball (17% to 35%). If infielder&#8217;s range doesn&#8217;t change, why does it for the outfielders? High fly ball hit rates suggest lower vertical angles (more towards LDs and away from popups), but there&#8217;s probably a bias towards advancing HR hitters, who hit the ball higher in the air and are easier to catch. So here, the difference is likely in the batters and not the outfielders.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123658</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 05:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123658</guid>
		<description>Not a bad question. Let me try to explain. The reason I think these players are underrated, ultimately, is because I believe we read too much into their hit rates. I think scouts and statisticians can see a guy give up a lot of singles, that lead to a lot of runs, and immediately discount the player. But, at the end of the day, this thought process forgets McCracken&#039;s DIPS theory, because these singles aren&#039;t the pitcher&#039;s fault. He&#039;s done his job -- initiated the ground ball -- it&#039;s just that his defense didn&#039;t get there.

Yes, you can make up for this just by striking everybody out. And from now until the end of time, the great K/9 pitchers will (and should!) dominate prospect rankings. This is just a call to not forget that there&#039;s another route to success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a bad question. Let me try to explain. The reason I think these players are underrated, ultimately, is because I believe we read too much into their hit rates. I think scouts and statisticians can see a guy give up a lot of singles, that lead to a lot of runs, and immediately discount the player. But, at the end of the day, this thought process forgets McCracken&#8217;s DIPS theory, because these singles aren&#8217;t the pitcher&#8217;s fault. He&#8217;s done his job &#8212; initiated the ground ball &#8212; it&#8217;s just that his defense didn&#8217;t get there.</p>
<p>Yes, you can make up for this just by striking everybody out. And from now until the end of time, the great K/9 pitchers will (and should!) dominate prospect rankings. This is just a call to not forget that there&#8217;s another route to success.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/staring-down-the-sinkerballers-part-two/#comment-123567</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 00:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=14762#comment-123567</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a potentially naive question: doesn&#039;t the concept that sinker pitchers are underrated contradict the opening quote of the article?  The idea is that sinkerball pitchers get lots of ground outs, but fewer strikeouts.  If pitchers really cannot influence the outcome of a ball that is put in play, it would be a disadvantage to allow more balls in play vs. strikeouts, and therefore sinkers would be bad.  It seems to me that the quote is mistaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a potentially naive question: doesn&#8217;t the concept that sinker pitchers are underrated contradict the opening quote of the article?  The idea is that sinkerball pitchers get lots of ground outs, but fewer strikeouts.  If pitchers really cannot influence the outcome of a ball that is put in play, it would be a disadvantage to allow more balls in play vs. strikeouts, and therefore sinkers would be bad.  It seems to me that the quote is mistaken.</p>
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