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	<title>Comments on: The Pirates Haul</title>
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		<title>By: JoshF</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79613</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79613</guid>
		<description>Keep in mind a few things about Locke.

(1) He is a cold weather kid coming from NH.  Because of that, the Braves have been very slow and cautious with his pitch counts and IP because kids from cold weather states don&#039;t often have the arm strength built up because they can&#039;t play all year long.  That has positives though.  He has less wear and tear on his arm so is most likely less of a future injury risk.  He also has played less baseball but yet is already ranked near the top 100 by most online publications.  

(2) He is still very young at 21and will most likely see AA this year.  It isn&#039;t like he is behind schedule, if you drafted a college pitcher on Tuesday he would be 21 or older and probably start in A or A+ perhaps reaching AA for a few innings before being shut down.  The following year they will either go straight to AA or go back to A+ for a few starts before going to AA.  Locke isn&#039;t behind schedule.

(3) Locke has 3 pitches that all project to be at least above average all of which he can throw for strikes.  He has a deceptive delivery which helps hide the ball and confuse the hitters.  BA says he has great makeup, competitivness and mound presence with a good frame that has room to fill out possibly allowing him to add a few more MPH to his FB.  For a LHP, that is pretty good.

(4)  Lastly, the Braves have been pretty good at developing pitching over the years and have been near the top of the majors in minor league talent for some time.  They consistently pick late in the draft and yet always get good talent.  Their scouting and development teams do an amazing job, if you are unfamiliar with the names I don&#039;t think you should simply assume the players have no potential because the Braves&#039; track record says they do a pretty good job at this sort of thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind a few things about Locke.</p>
<p>(1) He is a cold weather kid coming from NH.  Because of that, the Braves have been very slow and cautious with his pitch counts and IP because kids from cold weather states don&#8217;t often have the arm strength built up because they can&#8217;t play all year long.  That has positives though.  He has less wear and tear on his arm so is most likely less of a future injury risk.  He also has played less baseball but yet is already ranked near the top 100 by most online publications.  </p>
<p>(2) He is still very young at 21and will most likely see AA this year.  It isn&#8217;t like he is behind schedule, if you drafted a college pitcher on Tuesday he would be 21 or older and probably start in A or A+ perhaps reaching AA for a few innings before being shut down.  The following year they will either go straight to AA or go back to A+ for a few starts before going to AA.  Locke isn&#8217;t behind schedule.</p>
<p>(3) Locke has 3 pitches that all project to be at least above average all of which he can throw for strikes.  He has a deceptive delivery which helps hide the ball and confuse the hitters.  BA says he has great makeup, competitivness and mound presence with a good frame that has room to fill out possibly allowing him to add a few more MPH to his FB.  For a LHP, that is pretty good.</p>
<p>(4)  Lastly, the Braves have been pretty good at developing pitching over the years and have been near the top of the majors in minor league talent for some time.  They consistently pick late in the draft and yet always get good talent.  Their scouting and development teams do an amazing job, if you are unfamiliar with the names I don&#8217;t think you should simply assume the players have no potential because the Braves&#8217; track record says they do a pretty good job at this sort of thing.</p>
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		<title>By: JoshF</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79611</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 18:26:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79611</guid>
		<description>That isn&#039;t fair.  All 3 of the players the Pirates got back &quot;have almost no chance of becoming as valuable&quot; as a slighlty above average LF?

The problems with this trade are:

(1) McLouth is overrated offensively and defensively.  He came from the Pirates and was one of only two or three positional players worth even paying attention to.  He gets a GG in CF because he only committed 1 error and gets voted to he AS game because there was nobody else to go from the Pirates.

(2) The Pirates got back 3 young player with little or no MLB experience therefore the vast majority of baseball fans know nothing about them.  Because they know nothing about them, they don&#039;t think they have any valye...which is flat out wrong.

(3) The Pirates have been losing for 17 years and the majority of their fanbase is going to complain no matter what because they have developed the opinion that whatever the Pirates do will in fact be the wrong decision so let&#039;s blast them.

(4) The Pirates organization was in a horrible state when he took over.  He is builing a future contender, not a team that hovers around .500 with no shot of winning their division.  Someone already said it but if you can&#039;t win 90 games, it&#039;s most likely more healthy for your organization to lose 90 if the fans would understand how the system works and that is especially true for small market teams.  The Pirates simply can&#039;t compete with the Cubs/Cards/Brewers trying to compete now and build for the future.  They simply don&#039;t have the resources so NH decided to focus everything they have on the future which will make this organization much better in the long run than what the fans want because he will be able to sustain their success through the strong foundation he will eventually have built.  

Should the fans be upset?  Maybe, I don&#039;t think they should but understand why they are.  Was this a bad baseball decision?  Certainly not!  It falls right in line with everything NH has done, the only odd parts of the deal are that the Pirates locked him up longterm (which increased his trade value even though it might not have made sense since they just dealt him away) and they did it this early before the deadline (but he said he just really loved the offer so he took it).  The move makes sense, it falls right in line with everything he has done (build depth, specifically pitching), and the fans should really give him a bit of room because this isn&#039;t DL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That isn&#8217;t fair.  All 3 of the players the Pirates got back &#8220;have almost no chance of becoming as valuable&#8221; as a slighlty above average LF?</p>
<p>The problems with this trade are:</p>
<p>(1) McLouth is overrated offensively and defensively.  He came from the Pirates and was one of only two or three positional players worth even paying attention to.  He gets a GG in CF because he only committed 1 error and gets voted to he AS game because there was nobody else to go from the Pirates.</p>
<p>(2) The Pirates got back 3 young player with little or no MLB experience therefore the vast majority of baseball fans know nothing about them.  Because they know nothing about them, they don&#8217;t think they have any valye&#8230;which is flat out wrong.</p>
<p>(3) The Pirates have been losing for 17 years and the majority of their fanbase is going to complain no matter what because they have developed the opinion that whatever the Pirates do will in fact be the wrong decision so let&#8217;s blast them.</p>
<p>(4) The Pirates organization was in a horrible state when he took over.  He is builing a future contender, not a team that hovers around .500 with no shot of winning their division.  Someone already said it but if you can&#8217;t win 90 games, it&#8217;s most likely more healthy for your organization to lose 90 if the fans would understand how the system works and that is especially true for small market teams.  The Pirates simply can&#8217;t compete with the Cubs/Cards/Brewers trying to compete now and build for the future.  They simply don&#8217;t have the resources so NH decided to focus everything they have on the future which will make this organization much better in the long run than what the fans want because he will be able to sustain their success through the strong foundation he will eventually have built.  </p>
<p>Should the fans be upset?  Maybe, I don&#8217;t think they should but understand why they are.  Was this a bad baseball decision?  Certainly not!  It falls right in line with everything NH has done, the only odd parts of the deal are that the Pirates locked him up longterm (which increased his trade value even though it might not have made sense since they just dealt him away) and they did it this early before the deadline (but he said he just really loved the offer so he took it).  The move makes sense, it falls right in line with everything he has done (build depth, specifically pitching), and the fans should really give him a bit of room because this isn&#8217;t DL.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Au</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79483</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79483</guid>
		<description>The theory is that Andy McCutchen and Nyjer Morgan are more than adequate replacements for McLouth. But that&#039;s more of an&quot;ivory tower&quot; argument than anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The theory is that Andy McCutchen and Nyjer Morgan are more than adequate replacements for McLouth. But that&#8217;s more of an&#8221;ivory tower&#8221; argument than anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: BabyGoatEater</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79482</link>
		<dc:creator>BabyGoatEater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79482</guid>
		<description>Long time Braves fan here. 

Just keep in mind Pirates fans, that the Braves farm is the 3rd best in the majors (by most sites that judge such things). You got the 7th(Gorky) and 9th(Locke) best prospects in that system. Gorky immediately becomes your 2nd best prospect.....and you basically can count Locke as a 2nd round draft pick from last year. Morton is not getting enough love (really? a Braves pitching prospect not getting national media respect, no, never....) He was ONLY traded because he is blocked like crazy in ATL. He is not better than Vasquez, Lowe, Jurrjens, Hanson. We cant move Kawakami now, even though I would much rather have Medlin or Morton in rotation. He&#039;s isn&#039;t cracked up to be a reliever (ie: he always seems get better as he goes a few innings). Which kinda brings me to his problem. Its all head-case issues. He has the stuff, believe me. (Ive seen him pitch a few times in Majors and Minors. When he&#039;s on, he makes hitters look stupid) He has the knowledge of how to pitch. He just doesn&#039;t trust his stuff. He consistently throws a fastball when he should be using one of those great breaking pitches he has. // also keep in mind that trade we did with Texas. Those fellows have worked out pretty well so far for Texas.  // All in all, you could argue that the Pirates sold high, but didn&#039;t get enough. You can argue that they pulled the trigger too early. You can also argue that the Pirates weren&#039;t going to have the opportunity to trade with ATL in a month. More than likely, if spurned by PIT, we would have gotten a bat already in a then. Then you would have been forced to trade with a team that doesn&#039;t have the depth we have in the system, and maybe wouldn&#039;t have even gotten what you got. Of course, then why would you trade Mclouth anyways. All legitimate arguments. I don&#039;t see how you can argue that PIT doesn&#039;t have a better overall franchise now than before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long time Braves fan here. </p>
<p>Just keep in mind Pirates fans, that the Braves farm is the 3rd best in the majors (by most sites that judge such things). You got the 7th(Gorky) and 9th(Locke) best prospects in that system. Gorky immediately becomes your 2nd best prospect&#8230;..and you basically can count Locke as a 2nd round draft pick from last year. Morton is not getting enough love (really? a Braves pitching prospect not getting national media respect, no, never&#8230;.) He was ONLY traded because he is blocked like crazy in ATL. He is not better than Vasquez, Lowe, Jurrjens, Hanson. We cant move Kawakami now, even though I would much rather have Medlin or Morton in rotation. He&#8217;s isn&#8217;t cracked up to be a reliever (ie: he always seems get better as he goes a few innings). Which kinda brings me to his problem. Its all head-case issues. He has the stuff, believe me. (Ive seen him pitch a few times in Majors and Minors. When he&#8217;s on, he makes hitters look stupid) He has the knowledge of how to pitch. He just doesn&#8217;t trust his stuff. He consistently throws a fastball when he should be using one of those great breaking pitches he has. // also keep in mind that trade we did with Texas. Those fellows have worked out pretty well so far for Texas.  // All in all, you could argue that the Pirates sold high, but didn&#8217;t get enough. You can argue that they pulled the trigger too early. You can also argue that the Pirates weren&#8217;t going to have the opportunity to trade with ATL in a month. More than likely, if spurned by PIT, we would have gotten a bat already in a then. Then you would have been forced to trade with a team that doesn&#8217;t have the depth we have in the system, and maybe wouldn&#8217;t have even gotten what you got. Of course, then why would you trade Mclouth anyways. All legitimate arguments. I don&#8217;t see how you can argue that PIT doesn&#8217;t have a better overall franchise now than before.</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79461</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79461</guid>
		<description>Given what the Pirates have to work with, what is the road to success in the now?-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given what the Pirates have to work with, what is the road to success in the now?-</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Au</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79456</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Au</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 18:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79456</guid>
		<description>&quot;2012&quot; appears to be what new management is building for with Jeff Locke. By that time, Jose Tabata and Pedro Alvarez ought to be ready to go.

Problem is, management has forgotten that you have to live in the here and now. And often, the best way to get to 2012 is through 2011, and 2010, and 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;2012&#8243; appears to be what new management is building for with Jeff Locke. By that time, Jose Tabata and Pedro Alvarez ought to be ready to go.</p>
<p>Problem is, management has forgotten that you have to live in the here and now. And often, the best way to get to 2012 is through 2011, and 2010, and 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark R</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79455</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79455</guid>
		<description>Right. Morgan has shown decent patience and speed to along with otherwordly defense. There&#039;s a place for players like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. Morgan has shown decent patience and speed to along with otherwordly defense. There&#8217;s a place for players like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin S.</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79453</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79453</guid>
		<description>Right, but a Juan Pierre clone would also be incapable of taking walks, in addition to not hitting any home runs.  A doubles-OBP-efficient basestealer would still be valuable in a corner spot, even if he&#039;s not popping the home runs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, but a Juan Pierre clone would also be incapable of taking walks, in addition to not hitting any home runs.  A doubles-OBP-efficient basestealer would still be valuable in a corner spot, even if he&#8217;s not popping the home runs.</p>
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		<title>By: R M</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79445</link>
		<dc:creator>R M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:31:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79445</guid>
		<description>I am a Red Sox fan....your reasoning just doesn&#039;t make sense.  If one of those guys becomes an average player, the trade makes sense?  Mcclouth is in his prime, and under contract for the next 3 years at a price way below his &quot;free market&quot; value.  

Now you are saying that because they are not going to compete for the playoffs in the next 2 years, they should essentially give away their little remaining major league talent, for players who have almost no chance of becoming as valuable as the players they are trading away?  And that makes sense to you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a Red Sox fan&#8230;.your reasoning just doesn&#8217;t make sense.  If one of those guys becomes an average player, the trade makes sense?  Mcclouth is in his prime, and under contract for the next 3 years at a price way below his &#8220;free market&#8221; value.  </p>
<p>Now you are saying that because they are not going to compete for the playoffs in the next 2 years, they should essentially give away their little remaining major league talent, for players who have almost no chance of becoming as valuable as the players they are trading away?  And that makes sense to you?</p>
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		<title>By: R M</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-pirates-haul/#comment-79441</link>
		<dc:creator>R M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5300#comment-79441</guid>
		<description>Ichiro is an extreme example.  You don&#039;t have to hit homeruns to produce, but you can&#039;t be a Juan Pierre clone and be especially valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ichiro is an extreme example.  You don&#8217;t have to hit homeruns to produce, but you can&#8217;t be a Juan Pierre clone and be especially valuable.</p>
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