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	<title>Comments on: The Relative Importance of Fielding Metrics</title>
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	<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/</link>
	<description>Daily baseball statistical analysis and commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Rory Kussmaul</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-1350130</link>
		<dc:creator>Rory Kussmaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-1350130</guid>
		<description>I very    delighted  to find this  internet internet site  on bing, just what I was looking  for : D  besides   saved to bookmarks .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I very    delighted  to find this  internet internet site  on bing, just what I was looking  for : D  besides   saved to bookmarks .</p>
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		<title>By: Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80623</link>
		<dc:creator>Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80623</guid>
		<description>Sean Smith&#039;s Total Zone is designed to emulate advanced fielding metrics with only PBP data, so there are ratings back to the mid-50s or so, although they are not as precise as UZR (TZ is published at Baseball-Reference).  Colin Wyers has also worked on a metric that uses only traditional stats so pre-Retrosheet years can be calculated as well, but I think it&#039;s still under development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean Smith&#8217;s Total Zone is designed to emulate advanced fielding metrics with only PBP data, so there are ratings back to the mid-50s or so, although they are not as precise as UZR (TZ is published at Baseball-Reference).  Colin Wyers has also worked on a metric that uses only traditional stats so pre-Retrosheet years can be calculated as well, but I think it&#8217;s still under development.</p>
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		<title>By: MGL</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80332</link>
		<dc:creator>MGL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 05:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80332</guid>
		<description>The baseline for each &quot;bucket&quot; (for example, hard hit ground balls hit within 5 feet of the second base bag) is based on 4 years of data.  That is to smooth out the fluctuations you get because some of those &quot;buckets&quot; have so few balls in them (small sample size).

However, once everyone&#039;s UZR is calculated relative to those 4 year samples, each year is &quot;zero&#039;d out&quot; per position.  So, as Eric says, a player&#039;s UZR is always relative to the pool of players in both leagues for that year only.

I did not have to do that.  I would have left everyone&#039;s UZR as relative to the 4 years that I use as the baselines for each bucket.  That actually would be much better if the data did not have biases in some years as compared to others.  But I am afraid it does, so that I am forced to make a &quot;Sophie&#039;s Choice&quot; (not quite as serious of course) and I chose the zero everything out per year.  Remember that each position is zero&#039;d out so that for a &quot;Rollins effect&quot; to exist for a particular SS (like, say, Rollins) only the SS overall talent has to change from one year to another.  And that is easy to do because we are only dealing with one position out of 7 or so.

And it is certainly possible that one can estimate the relative strength of each position from year to year.  One can do as Colin suggests for each position, making the appropriate age adjustments of course (some positions lose as much as 1 to 2 runs a year per player per season with age).  One can also look at who arrives and who leaves.  For example, if for SS, every player had the same number of chances in year X+1 as in year X, and nothing else changed, we could assume that the SS position got worse overall since everyone aged by a year.  Let&#039;s say that Jeter retired after this year and some slick fielding SS from the minors &quot;took his place&quot; and those were the only changes.  Other than the aforementioned age considerations for all the other players, we could infer that the SS position got better.  Etc.

So, yes, Eric makes a very good point that one should be aware that all UZRs you see are relative to league average (both NL and AL combined) at each position separately.  Because of that, one has to be careful when comparing players from different years and even when combining years for the same player.

We actually have the same problem with other metrics, but the chances of an entire league changing from one year to the next are not nearly as great as one position or another.  On the other hand, how do you think the AL got so much better than the NL, pitching and hitting-wise, just a few years ago?  What I mean is that even overall league-wide hitting and pitching talent can change fairly significantly from year to year.

Just to make one more thing clear.  You are going to see much more random fluctuation on a player&#039;s UZR from year to year than you will from a change in league-wide talent, so when you see a player with +5, +3, +7, -6, while you can probably infer a league-wide talent increase in that -6 year, on the average, don&#039;t assume THAT much of a talent change.  Most of that change is likely to be random fluctuation, secondly, some of that change is likely a change in that player&#039;s true talent, and lastly, the smallest amount of that change is likely to be a change in league-wide talent at that position (an increase in this case).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The baseline for each &#8220;bucket&#8221; (for example, hard hit ground balls hit within 5 feet of the second base bag) is based on 4 years of data.  That is to smooth out the fluctuations you get because some of those &#8220;buckets&#8221; have so few balls in them (small sample size).</p>
<p>However, once everyone&#8217;s UZR is calculated relative to those 4 year samples, each year is &#8220;zero&#8217;d out&#8221; per position.  So, as Eric says, a player&#8217;s UZR is always relative to the pool of players in both leagues for that year only.</p>
<p>I did not have to do that.  I would have left everyone&#8217;s UZR as relative to the 4 years that I use as the baselines for each bucket.  That actually would be much better if the data did not have biases in some years as compared to others.  But I am afraid it does, so that I am forced to make a &#8220;Sophie&#8217;s Choice&#8221; (not quite as serious of course) and I chose the zero everything out per year.  Remember that each position is zero&#8217;d out so that for a &#8220;Rollins effect&#8221; to exist for a particular SS (like, say, Rollins) only the SS overall talent has to change from one year to another.  And that is easy to do because we are only dealing with one position out of 7 or so.</p>
<p>And it is certainly possible that one can estimate the relative strength of each position from year to year.  One can do as Colin suggests for each position, making the appropriate age adjustments of course (some positions lose as much as 1 to 2 runs a year per player per season with age).  One can also look at who arrives and who leaves.  For example, if for SS, every player had the same number of chances in year X+1 as in year X, and nothing else changed, we could assume that the SS position got worse overall since everyone aged by a year.  Let&#8217;s say that Jeter retired after this year and some slick fielding SS from the minors &#8220;took his place&#8221; and those were the only changes.  Other than the aforementioned age considerations for all the other players, we could infer that the SS position got better.  Etc.</p>
<p>So, yes, Eric makes a very good point that one should be aware that all UZRs you see are relative to league average (both NL and AL combined) at each position separately.  Because of that, one has to be careful when comparing players from different years and even when combining years for the same player.</p>
<p>We actually have the same problem with other metrics, but the chances of an entire league changing from one year to the next are not nearly as great as one position or another.  On the other hand, how do you think the AL got so much better than the NL, pitching and hitting-wise, just a few years ago?  What I mean is that even overall league-wide hitting and pitching talent can change fairly significantly from year to year.</p>
<p>Just to make one more thing clear.  You are going to see much more random fluctuation on a player&#8217;s UZR from year to year than you will from a change in league-wide talent, so when you see a player with +5, +3, +7, -6, while you can probably infer a league-wide talent increase in that -6 year, on the average, don&#8217;t assume THAT much of a talent change.  Most of that change is likely to be random fluctuation, secondly, some of that change is likely a change in that player&#8217;s true talent, and lastly, the smallest amount of that change is likely to be a change in league-wide talent at that position (an increase in this case).</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80298</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80298</guid>
		<description>1) do we have minor league UZR?

2) I think it&#039;s generally perceived that major league level hitting is more rare than major league level fielding.  Is this true?  How rare is the MVP-level hitter/fielder?  Average hitter/fielder?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) do we have minor league UZR?</p>
<p>2) I think it&#8217;s generally perceived that major league level hitting is more rare than major league level fielding.  Is this true?  How rare is the MVP-level hitter/fielder?  Average hitter/fielder?</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Wyers</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80293</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Wyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80293</guid>
		<description>That exacerabates the problem, BenJ. If we want to know who was a better fielder when comparing across seasons, we may not always be interested in who was the better fielder relative to average; we may want to know who was the better fielder relative to the other. Without adjustment, we can&#039;t necessarily do that with Dewan +/- (or UZR), although for short time periods we shouldn&#039;t see a significant difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That exacerabates the problem, BenJ. If we want to know who was a better fielder when comparing across seasons, we may not always be interested in who was the better fielder relative to average; we may want to know who was the better fielder relative to the other. Without adjustment, we can&#8217;t necessarily do that with Dewan +/- (or UZR), although for short time periods we shouldn&#8217;t see a significant difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Wyers</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80291</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Wyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80291</guid>
		<description>Sure there is. We can look at all players who played in consecutive seasons and see what the average change was. Here&#039;s a weighted average in the change of UZR_150 for players who played in consecutive seasons, compared to the previous year:

Year	AVG_DIFF
2003	0.37
2004	-1.07
2005	0.30
2006	0.64
2007	0.74
2008	-0.01

I&#039;m not seeing any evidence of a Jimmy Rollins Effect here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure there is. We can look at all players who played in consecutive seasons and see what the average change was. Here&#8217;s a weighted average in the change of UZR_150 for players who played in consecutive seasons, compared to the previous year:</p>
<p>Year	AVG_DIFF<br />
2003	0.37<br />
2004	-1.07<br />
2005	0.30<br />
2006	0.64<br />
2007	0.74<br />
2008	-0.01</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not seeing any evidence of a Jimmy Rollins Effect here.</p>
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		<title>By: KJOK</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80207</link>
		<dc:creator>KJOK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80207</guid>
		<description>So, is there some way we can tell whether or not this is actually the case?  I&#039;m somewhat skeptical that quality would change that drastically in any one season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, is there some way we can tell whether or not this is actually the case?  I&#8217;m somewhat skeptical that quality would change that drastically in any one season.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Seidman</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80202</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Seidman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80202</guid>
		<description>This is assuming you consider the relativity to be a problem.  I don&#039;t, at all, because that&#039;s what we want to know - quality in relation to the league.  I merely wanted to highlight that when players fluctuate, it might not always be solely based on their own skills or results; the league could also improve/weaken and we need to take this into account.  Would it be great to know that Rollins had an absolute +5 or higher in every season?  Yes, but it&#039;s probably more important to know that in a couple of years he was only a run or so above average, perhaps because the league improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is assuming you consider the relativity to be a problem.  I don&#8217;t, at all, because that&#8217;s what we want to know &#8211; quality in relation to the league.  I merely wanted to highlight that when players fluctuate, it might not always be solely based on their own skills or results; the league could also improve/weaken and we need to take this into account.  Would it be great to know that Rollins had an absolute +5 or higher in every season?  Yes, but it&#8217;s probably more important to know that in a couple of years he was only a run or so above average, perhaps because the league improved.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve C</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80200</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80200</guid>
		<description>If wishes were fishes we would have a large enough sample of data to create a replacement level UZR to compare fielders to as opposed to average.  That would probablt remove some of the relative noise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If wishes were fishes we would have a large enough sample of data to create a replacement level UZR to compare fielders to as opposed to average.  That would probablt remove some of the relative noise.</p>
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		<title>By: BenJ</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-relative-importance-of-fielding-metrics/#comment-80199</link>
		<dc:creator>BenJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/?p=5489#comment-80199</guid>
		<description>This is why John Dewan calculates his Plus/Minus numbers based only on a single season of data.  Both guys had the same idea in creating their systems, with a few subtle differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why John Dewan calculates his Plus/Minus numbers based only on a single season of data.  Both guys had the same idea in creating their systems, with a few subtle differences.</p>
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