What To Do With Delmon
When the Minnesota Twins gave up Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett to get Delmon Young and Brendan Harris, they believed they were adding one of the game’s elite young hitters. Young had been a top prospect since high school, impressing scouts with his tools and blowing through the minors with quality performances. He got to the majors at age 20 and held his own, posting a .343 wOBA in 131 plate appearances.
By pretty much any standard, Young had the pedigree of an all-star. The tools were there. The performance was there. His strike zone judgment needed some work, but it was the kind of problem that would limit him to being just a good player instead of a great one if he didn’t fix it. And, considering his age, he had plenty of time to fix it.
He has to fix a lot more than his pitch recognition now. His 2009 line stands at .231/.272/.265, and he’s fallen apart as a hitter. His K% had held steady at 19% for his first three years, but is up to 35% this year. His ISO has dropped from .115 to .034. He’s still not walking, of course, so he’s currently an aggressive hitter who strikes out a lot and doesn’t have any power. We can’t even suggest that his struggles are luck related, as his BABIP is .347. He has a .347 batting average on balls in play and is still posting a .242 wOBA. That’s remarkable.
The current version of Young combines Jeff Francouer’s pitch recognition, Adam Dunn’s contact abilities, and Juan Pierre’s power. Just for good measure, he’s also playing the outfield like Jack Cust. Add it all up, and you have a guy who has been worth -1.3 wins in 125 plate appearances. Prorated over a full season, that’s -6.5 wins.
To put that in context, Young’s current performance is equally as far away from replacement level as Justin Upton’s current performance… just in the other direction. If Young was going to continue to perform at this level going forward, replacing him with a random Triple-A outfielder would yield about the same return as replacing that random Triple-A outfielder with an All-Star.
Delmon Young needs to go back to the minor leagues. He’s so far away from being a major league player at the moment that the Twins can’t justify putting him on the field while trying to fix him. The problem, however, is that Young is out of options, since he signed a major league contract coming out of High School. As bad as he is, Young’s not clearing waivers, so shipping him back to Triple-A is out of the question.
There don’t appear to be any easy answers here. Young isn’t just slumping – he’s broken. The Twins still want to win the AL Central, so they can’t punt left field while trying to get him on track. But, sitting on the bench for a manager he doesn’t particularly like isn’t going to help him improve either.
At this point, the Twins would probably be best served if Young went on the DL with Dontrelle Willis disease, and they used some kind of mental anguish issue to get him off the roster and let him “rehab” down in the minors. This current arrangement isn’t working for anyone.
Print This Post
“That’s the problem; he’s not into talking about mechanics. He doesn’t like to talk about mechanics. So it’s a little bit of a struggle,”
Twins manager Ron Gardenire talking about Delmon Young.
At least with Gomez, its obvious he’s taking the coaches advice and trying to make improvements, even if its seemed to make him worse for the moment. There is no way a team that hopes to contend can continue to throw him out there every day. Gomez was a league average player last year and has been riding the bench for someone who played all of last season below replacement level and has been even worse this year. Put him on the bench until he decides he’s going to start listening to the coaches instead of his dad.
The mechanics theyre advocating for Delmon are nothing like his natural swing or what made him good in the minors. The problem is theyve already overhauled him and tried to make him something he’s not.
Sounds like what they tried to do to David Ortiz, which Ortiz memorably described as, “They wanted me to hit like a bitch.”
Ortiz has evidently taken that to heart.
It’s amazing how front-loaded his batting stance is. The end result is a long swing and part of the reason why he is so behind on many balls. He needs a major overhaul.
I’m harder on Delmon than anyone know–he’s incredibly hard to watch, as a Twins fan, even when he’s going “well”–but let me be fair to him for a second.
He had a .648 OPS and about a 25% strikeout rate before leaving the team because of the sickness (and eventual death) of his mother. Obviously terrible (and with atrocious defense), but not six-wins-below-replacement terrible. Since returning, he’s hitting .118/.143/.118 in 35 PA, 19 of which have ended in strikeouts.
He has no business being in the starting lineup right now, and it would be kind of nice to be able to send him down, but it’s pretty clear what a big part of the problem is, and it would be pretty heartless to give up on him right at this particular moment (not that “giving up on him” is what Dave was advocating, but still).
Dang. I started on an article yesterday for a Twins site with this exact title and conclusion. C’et la vie…
If they don’t/aren’t able to pull a Dontrelle with him, I’d say they should just bench him indefinitely until he wises up and starts listening to coaching. Kind of an unusual move, but it’s a pretty extraordinary situation.
I’m not sure “pulling a Dontrelle” with Young is the way to go. I mean, maybe it is, my only other suggestion would be to simply cut the guy and move on, but it’s not like pulling a Dontrelle worked for Dontrelle.
Haha, simply cutting the guy. Context is lost on you, huh?
That’s horrible, yet I giggled like a schoolgirl.
Nevermind, damnit. It was Dukes that threatened his wife with a knife, right? Now I just feel like a douche bag.
All black people are the same to you, huh?
No. I confused two young, troubled outfielders from the Rays’ system.
Right.
It was an honest mistake, one I owned up to instantly. If you want to call me a racist over that, maybe you should just come out and say it. Otherwise, keep your snide insinuations to yourself.
Oh, I see. You corrected yourself so you can’t possibly be racist. If only Michael Richards had the sense to say “sorry, I meant African-American” he could have avoided that whole fiasco.
There’s a big difference between what Michael Richards said and crossing up two players who have often been linked together because of their off-the-field issues while with the same organization. You can go back to seeing racism around every little corner. I had a mental lapse that had nothing do with “all black people being the same to me.” Your baseless allegations are far more insulting that what was originally said.
Don’t worry, Kevin. Anyone with a functioning brain understands that confusing two people with similar backgrounds doesn’t make you a Klan member.
If anyone’s racist here its Jack. If Kevin had crossed up two white players with similar backgrounds on the same team, would you also be calling him a racist?
And Jack, if you want to get rid of racism, you should probably try not make it an issue any time it could be one of a hundred things the people being discussed might have in common. Conversations like this just don’t do any good.
Apparently nobody here has ever heard of Freud.
Because Freud’s theories are the basis for modern psychology, right?
Wait, was Delmon Young the one that messed up the oath of office?
I think the Twins have really screwed him up. Theyve destroyed his power stroke and tried to change him into a guy who hits to all fields – the same thing they did to David Ortiz. They also don’t value a walk. Bad coaching there. Its really messed him up.
Also, irregular playing time has done nothing for his confidence or development.
I think he needs a change of scenery. The tools are still there, IMHO.
What a silly response by alskor. The Twins DO value walks, it’s one of the things that they’ve worked hard on over the past few years — working the count. But what the heck does it matter if they do or don’t value something that is clearly NOT a part of Delmon’s game? And BTW: Delmon’s swing was messed up before he got here.
Have you watched a single Twins game this season?
“The Twins have really screwed him up?” How? The whole point is that Delmon WON’T LISTEN to the Twins’ coaching staff. How can the Twins screw him up if he won’t listen to them?
“That’s the problem; he’s not into talking about mechanics. He doesn’t like to talk about mechanics. So it’s a little bit of a struggle,” Gardenhire said…
Last season the Twins had similar trouble communicating with Young on his hitting. Asked if that’s gotten better this year, Gardenhire said, “He’s really easy to talk to, but then when you get in a conversation about hitting and stuff, he doesn’t like to hear that.”
Im saying he’s right not to listen. He’s fighting what theyre trying to make him do – and he’s right to do it, because what they want him to do is a really bad idea.
As has been noted, more than one Twin has complained about this. The Twins/Tom Kelly/Ron Gardenhire approach works for some people, but its not right for Delmon.
Delmon was killing worms and hitting it the other way before joining the Twins. Were they preemptively changing his approach?
Yeah, he really sucked in the minors.
I think it’s becoming more apparently you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Could I have butchered that comment any more? Yeesh.
I never thought he was any good from when he first came up. That was probably because I hadn’t followed his minor league track record – I just watched him play for the DRays when they played the Yanks. He looked like a hacker at the plate and a butcher in the field. SSS, obviously. He was very young and adjusting to the majors. Still, I didn’t understand why the Twins traded for him (trading pitching for hitting makes sense for the Twins, don’t get me wrong, but I didn’t think Young would hit).
But it looks like he’s never adjusted, and refuses to listen to those trying to help him adjust. Now maybe it’s possible that the Twins “screwed him up” the way they allegedly screwed up Ortiz. It seems to me, though, that the Twins have done a pretty good job not screwing up Joe Mauer or Justin Morneau.
Have the Twins screwed up his glovework too?
He have (or had at least) a very quick and hard stroke. and showing solid power at a young age and good athelesim.
Was he overrated? maybe, but he was still a very good prospect.
I think I kinda agree that Twins’ system + Delmon = disastor. Twin’s don’t like dead pull guys, don’t care much about walks, and cares a lot about discipline. that kinda play completely against Delmon’s strength and weakness.
He was like… what? 20 years old?
and YES, the Twins don’t play him every day and kept switching him from RF to LF and back. He was a decent fielder in Tampa. He appears to be improving, as well, now that theyre keeping him in one spot.
The Twins have never played Delmon in right field. He has played exclusively left for the Twins (and quite badly).
Youre right – i was thinking of when he was with Tampa. Shifting him to LF was still strange and poorly thought out though. I do believe it added to his struggles.
You really need to check your facts.
As to his glovework that was pretty bad prior to his going to the twins.
Young’s been getting by on the reputation of having “tools” for three years without showing any of them at the major league level.
He hits too many ground balls (55.8% )
He doesn’t hit with any power (7.7% HR/FB %)
He doesn’t take enough walks (4.4% )
He chases too many pitches outside the zone (40.8%)
He doesn’t make enough contact (74.8%)
He’s clearly got a lot going against him right now, and not much beyond a minor league reputation in his favor. As a Twins fan I hope he figures it out soon, otherwise he’ll be watching baseball from the couch rather than the bench in a few years.
In a few years he’ll still only be 26… 27.
I expect he will have an Adrian Beltre/Andruw Jones breakout in that respect.
Do you have a reason for saying that, or is it just blind faith? I also think its funny that you picked two elite-level defenders at important defensive positions to compare with a poor defensive corner outfielder.
A mental problem more than anything. Minor leagues may a good place to start or if another team is willing to take him off the Twins hand, it could make a good change of scenery.
Pitching is still a possibility down the road.
Delmon Young needs to go back to the minor leagues.
That’s a bit hard to happen, since he is out of options…
Delmon needs to play every day in his natural position (RF). He went through a lot in May. He’ll be fine. His inflated K% rate this season is due to the small sample size and it will correct itself if he gets regular playing time.
If you look at the pitches he faces per plate appearance, the have been improved to 3.72 P/PA in 2009 vs. 3.56 in 2008, 3.50 in 2007 and 2.85 in 2006. Also, if you look at his O-swing%, it has been improved to 34.8% in 2009 from 39.9% in 2008, 41.3% in 2007 and 50.3% in 2006.
I take those two (plus the fact that Young’s career OPS is about .100 points higher in August and June and .150 point higher in July, than in April and May) as better leading indicators about Young’s future success than his K% through 34 games…
Do you really think playing in right is going to change how awful he is at the plate?
He is a better RF than Cuddyer and Span is a better LF than RF (compare Young’s and Cuddyer’s UZR in 2007 and have a look at Cuddyer’s arm rating the last 2 seasons; also look at Span’s UZR in LF vs CF, vs. RF.). That would give the Twins the best defensive outfield there.
Playing RF will not change his numbers, getting consistent playing time will. Take a Mulligan for May. His mother died. His batting lead indicators all point higher. I suspect that by the end of the season, if he gets consistent playing time, his rate stats will surpass those of 2008…
Seems like pretty flimsy evidence to me. So what if his Oswing% is improving? It’s still pretty bad. And his O-Cantact% is just miserable. So what if he sees more pitches per at bat? His walk rate is actually down from 5.7% last year to 4.1% this year.
Basically what is happening is pitchers are just pounding the outside corner, because his swing is too long and as a result he makes horrible contact, and even if he does make contact, he’s got a GB rate of over 55%, so if they make a mistake and he does manage to get ahold of one, it’ll probably just be a weak grounder and no harm done.
Look, I realize that with the Twins flyball-heavy pitching staff, a good outfield defense is very important, but I’m far from convinced his D is any better than Cuddy’s, certainly not enough to justify the tremendous drop off in offense from the switch. The Twins are still competing for the Central, and don’t have time to waste with Delmon, especially given his inability or unwillingness to change his approach.
He is 23. At that age Kirby Puckett was in the minors… just a thought before you right him off. And yes he is improving every season. Look at his OPS+ from 2007-2008. This season he only had 125 PA. Way too small of a sample size. Let’s see where he will be at 500 PA…
he does not have a better arm than cuddyer regardless of what the stats say. cuddyer is a mediocre outfielder because he plays slow in the OF and isn’t aggressive – but he has good hands, a great arm, and plays smart (except for the lack of aggression). delmon might be a hair faster but he’s also uncoordinated and stupid – and he lacks smart aggression too. his arm is very strong, but it’s not as effective as cuddyer’s.
i too think that young belongs in RF – but i sure wouldn’t displace cuddyer to put him there the way cuddyer has been hitting. it really bugs me, though, when the OF is young, gomez, span or young, gomez, kubel and gardenhire puts young in left instead of right. it’s like he’s got it in his head that delmon is now a LF forever since he made him one last year.
“Delmon Young needs to go back to the minor leagues.”
That’s a bit hard to happen, since he is out of options…
Which was covered in the same paragraph . . .
I looked at his player page expecting his BABIP to be like .200 or something unlucky, but it’s .347, basically his career average. As a Braves fan, it’s nice seeing that Francoeur isn’t the suckiest outfielder in the majors.
I played with Delmon in High School and he was just amazing. They Rays and Twins have cut down his swing, hoping to increase his contact but at the expense of his power. New fences were built to contain the mammoth power he displayed in HS. He has not lost that strength, just lost that approach. In the outfield he never was an elite fielder, but does have a cannon. I agree he needs to find some new scenery, either with another team or the minors. He still has the tools, he just needs to progress his approach.
A lot of people hit HRs in high school. That doesn’t make them big league stars. Heck, that doesn’t even guarantee that they’re drafted, yet alone become solid MLB ballplayers.
I’d cut bait. The Twins can play Gomez in center, Span in left, and Cuddyer in right. Gomez swings a limp noodle, but he makes up for it in the field. Span and Cuddyer are good enough at the plate. The Twins have
Eric HinskeJason Kubel to DH. (In what universe is Kubel better than Hinske? Answer, this one.)Some solid points so far. I honestly believe his mom passing away has taken its toll on him. She had a long battle with cancer, and there isn’t a person out there who that wouldn’t affect. That being said, he does hit way too many grounders to ever get his slugging up to around .500, and he isn’t a fast enough runner to be solid in the OF despite having a hose for an arm. However, he is still a young player and sometimes things just click for guys with his talent.
He really hasn’t shown any improvement over the last 4 years, so maybe he isn’t as good as hyped. I really hate to give up on him though.
He’s virtually unwatchable. This trade couldn’t have gone any worse.
However, I think he’s the 5th OF that finds time when they are up against a LF and they want to give Cuddy a break and play him at DH or RF.
That’s how he should be used. I agree that the Twins insisting he’s a LF despite his performance suggesting it’s a poor idea is just mind boggeling. If they’re going to play him, it should be in RF. And at this stage, not over Cuddy.
To think a bit over a year ago they actually toyed with Young being their CF becuase they didn’t know if Span or Gomez could cut it with their O and Young was toolsy enough to man any of the OF positions. Wow, did they even scout this guy?
The Twins have not attempted to change Delmon’s swing, and for a couple of reasons. For one, he doesn’t listen to them. I don’t know if anyone saw the MLB Network documentary, but he and his brother respond poorly to suggestions not doled out by their father. It’s not a terribly unique situation, but it hasn’t been good for Delmon.
When he first came over, he played extremely poorly the first couple of months, and the organization was amazed that he was unwilling to ever pull the ball. Delmon was the one who wanted to spray the ball to the opposite field, not the Twins, and even this Spring Training they were asking him to work hard and pull in order to generate some power. It’s what led to that 1 HR/4 ground balls into double plays day in ST.
His issues are far more a product of really poor pitch recognition, and a swing that doesn’t seem to put the ball in the air when he does make contact. I remember one of the BA guys talking about him in a chat, saying his ability to hit even 10 HR’s in a season is a sign of incredible strength. He, of course, also said that his problems were 90% unfixable.
I like him, and I want him to do well, but he offers no sort of positive contribution right now. It’s sad.
The longer the Twins keep him on the major league roster they are essentially telling him it’s ok to have a shitty work ethic, not listen to any coaching and be an overall ass. I good swift kick to AAA or lower might open his eyes and if the Twins lose him, may be for the best.
Sounds harsh but some guys don’t get it until they’re pride is hurt…
That is foolish. As hard as I am on the guy, the Twins gave up a lot to get him and you don’t give up on a guy with his track record at the age of 23!!
Keeping him on the roster and on the bench hurts the Twins bench depth, but does NOT encourage a crappy work ethic. Not in the least. On the contrary, letting a guy rot on the bench sends the right message. You’re here, but you aren’t playing until you get you crap together.
For a guy that has had as much success as Delmon has before coming to the Twins, if that doesn’t send him a message, nothing will.
Someone needs a remedial lesson in sunk costs. I don’t care if they gave up two future HOFers to get the guy, that doesn’t play into how you handle him going forward. Not that I’m suggesting he be given up on, but what it took to acquire him has no bearing on what you do with him now.
How do you get him to AAA? I know he’s been terrible, but he’s relatively cheap, and there’s bound to be one team willing to take a flier on a former overall #1 draft pick.
You cannot get him to AAA, without passing waivers (good luck)
He is out of options.
I wish the writer of this post knew (or researched) it, before he posted it…
Um, Dave’s post clearly says “The problem, however, is that Young is out of options, since he signed a major league contract coming out of High School.” Did you even read the article?
That was edited… Did you read the original article this afternoon?
(and the reason he has no options left is not because he signed a major league contract out of high school – a lot of players do- but because his 3 option years were passed)
That was edited… Did you read the original article this afternoon?
he rotates vertically (in an arc perpendicular to the ground) and doesn’t roll his wrists. i don’t know what that’s supposed to do, but no one else does it, and intuitively it seems like it would be a hard way to try to hit. it’s as if he swings in such a way that if he hits a line drive the only possible place it can go is RC field. any ball he hits to LF almost has to have topspin. i don’t know. i don’t get it.
what do scouts/pro hitting instructors etc say about his swing?
honest to god i think his swing would improve playing homerun derby every day or even slow pitch softball.
i mean, plenty of good hitters have golfed the ball – griffey and jacque jones come to mind… but delmon golfs it without getting full hip rotation (seems like whoever said he has poor flexibility might be right), and he kind of inside-out golfs it oppo. i don’t think i could hit the ball 150 feet the way he swings.
Dave,
how about comparing Delmon Young’s offense and defense to someone you know very well: Wladimir Balentien. He is a year older than Young.
Please tell me how do they match and what should happen to Balentien?
Maybe I’m being too simplistic here, but has anyone tossed around the idea he doesn’t like living in Minnesota? Add in the fact that the team that traded him to the Twins went to WS.
It’s only a matter of time before he’s shipped somewhere else or signs with another team, but for a player that once racked in 93 RBIs at such a young age I still believe there is untapped potential there.
I don’t think that does or should have anything to do with it. So what if he doesn’t like Minnesota as a place to live? He gets paid a whole lot of money(in real life terms, not baseball, obv.) to help the Twins win. Logically, the best and easiest way to get out of MN is to play his butt off until free agency when he can go set himself up financially for the rest of his life with a big contract in LA or NY or wherever else he wants to be.
And as for 93 RBIs, go to Driveline Mechanics and read their recent 3-part series on overrated RBI guys. You can luck your way into 93 RBIs.
For you and I this probably true, but this Delmon Young were talking about. He does have a past history of not being a happy camper. Also, being in place/originzation that your are not totally on par with, despite “the love the game” and contracts, bitterness can effect production is certain players. Just a theory, not one with solid ground, just a personal one.
I’ll pass on a 3-series on how RBIs are lucky, RBIs are RBIs and he drove in 93 of the them at a very young age with some other promising sabremetrics.
It’s easy to drive in 93 runs when you completely eschew the walk. What about the 65 runs he scored that year because he was never on base? You can’t consider one without the other.
the man’s a lot like his brother was when he was younger…a spray hitter, despite having enough size and strength to hit for power with a better approach. he needs to make mechanical adjustments, and won’t.
you can’t fix someone who doesn’t want to work at it.
while it may be true that his mother’s death hurt him some…the fact is he’s been regressing for several years, now.
thrylos is a believer, despite the GB% and other indicators. He’s got some stats he thinks show hope. I’m not a believer, I hated the trade when it was made, and I really hate it now.
The problem is, what to do now?
If you think you can win it all, he’s got to be your 4th/5th OFer at this point. But, how will he get better if he never plays?
If you don’t think you can win it all, you better trade Cuddy, as his value will never be higher (actually, that was true two weeks ago, less so now) and play Young in RF for the year, and see if he can get better.
Not being there, I’d say if he is unwilling to take coaching, you are better off just cutting him at this point (or trading him for some random low A player who might be a prospect). You can’t wait for someone that won’t work with coaches to magically get better, not if it will take 2-3 years (which is what it looks like right now). If he was willing to work with coaches, you might wait 2-3 years for him to be good, but if he’s not, why put in the effort?
How many years to FA for DY? Let’s say it takes him three years to become league average or better for a corner OF.
Is it worth carrying him for three years? Will he be a FA, or close, by then?
He won’t be league average this year, and I doubt he will next year. So, how long can you carry him, on the promise he might be good (and if he is good, do you reap the benefits, or does he leave)?
The worst part about the Delmon Young situation is that Gardenhire continues to use him and have Carlos Gomez sit on the bench, when Gomez 1) plays outstanding defense, 2) has amazing raw athletic ability, 3) actually works hard with batting coaches every day. The long the Twins let Young try to play his way out of this, in the vain hope that he become even a passable hitter who plays bad defense, they let Gomez and his vast, if distant, potential sit on the bench.
Well, from a developmental standpoint, Gomez probably belongs in AAA. Yes, I know his defense makes him valuable with the club, but it would be easier if he didn’t have to learn how to hit on the fly.