Is It Over for Ivan?

As we approach the midpoint of spring training and cast a wanting eye towards opening day, it is probably fair to wonder about the status of currently unsigned free agents. One such free agent is future Hall of Famer Ivan Rodriguez, whose dalliances with the Mets a week or so ago proved fruitless, and thus may be pushing the legendary backstop towards retirement whether he wants to or not.

He reportedly still has the itch to play, but to be honest, Rodriguez hasn’t been particularly useful with the stick since the first administration of the second Bush. From 2005 henceforth, Rodriguez has hit .274/.301/.404 while amassing over 3000 plate appearances. Thus, despite making three All Star appearances, winning two gold gloves, and even participating in a home run derby in the interim, it’s probably fair to wonder if he’s still on anyone’s speed dial.

So with Rodriguez’ future firmly in limbo, it seems fair to consider where his place is among all-time great backstops.

One interesting tidbit that I noticed when researching for a previous piece was how the leaderboard of runners thrown out at Baseball Reference was ripe with catchers of yore. To clarify, by my eyeballing only six of the top 200 listed (by caught stealing percentage) have played in the past 40 years or so. Number 200 on that list is Ron Karkovice, the 12-year vet of feast-or-famine fame. The Officer nabbed just over 41 percent — about two in every five — of attempted base thieves against him. A cursory glance up the list shows only the following catchers having played in the past 30-40 years: Henry Blanco (43.1 percent), Johnny Bench (43.5 percent), Yadier Molina (44.0 percent), Thurman Munson (44.5 percent). On top of the list? Today’s subject, I-Rod — I won’t call him Pudge out of respect to Carlton Fisk — who checks in at 76th on the all-time list by nabbing 45.7 percent of those who tried to cross him.

To me, that hardly seems possible; 75 more guys were more prolific at throwing out baserunners than the great Rodriguez? The great Roy Campanella, who’s proven to be an inspiring tale for my paralyzed brother for what it’s worth, is the all time leader at 57.4 percent, but it still boggles my mind that A. 75 men were more prolific than Rodriguez at nabbing base thieves and B. only six catchers in the last 40 or so years — a mere three percent of the top 200 — match up against catchers of all time. I actually posed the question to our FanGraphs experts, and some suggested it was a case of bigger, faster, stronger — though I think that applies to both sides — or perhaps a case of the running game just not being as big of a part of the game’s society — maybe it really IS just society — but nonetheless, I’m still seeking a good grasp on it.

But I digress. Throwing runners out isn’t all a catcher can do to to prove his mettle, and since we can’t quantify defensive merits quite as well as we’d like, I don’t want to belabor the point much longer. By our defensive metrics, he’s 165.2 runs above average, a good 20-plus runs above next-nearest competitor Charlie Bennett, and about 50 runs better than Jim Sundberg, who checks in at third. Rodriguez revolutionized the position, for the sake of brevity. Obviously, this is why he was permitted to Pedro Feliz his way around the league with his bat over the past seven or so years.

And while we don’t have a good grasp on whether or not veteran mentorship from a catcher has intrinsic value or not — apparently GMs feel it does — let’s take a glance at some of the staffs that Rodriguez has caught since his bat went by the wayside.

Year Team ERA Young Catcher “Mentored”
2005 Tigers 4.51 (8th AL) N/A
2006 Tigers 3.84 (1st AL) N/A
2007 Tigers 4.57 (9th AL) N/A
2008 Tigers/Yankees 4.90 w/ DET (12th) – 4.28 w/ NYY (8th) Dusty Ryan/Francisco Cervelli
2009 Astros/Rangers 4.54 w/ HOU (13th) – 4.38 w/ TEX (8th) J.R. Towles/Jarrod Saltalamacchia
2010 Nationals 4.13 (11th NL) Wilson Ramos
2011 Nationals 3.58 (6th NL)* Wilson Ramos

*Rodriguez only caught 304.2 innings in 2011.

I put mentored in quotes because I don’t know if that’s an actual thing, or if I really buy into it. Similarly, we can’t be sure if he even had much of a relationship with each young catcher — newspaper quotes aside — but I think it’s still slightly interesting to note. Nonetheless as we can see, it’s really hard to pull any of the sort of ‘intangible value’ that one might try to sell themselves on if they were to sign Rodriguez at this point in his career. Obviously a catcher isn’t responsible for the execution of pitches, but to be on just a pair of teams (and he didn’t play much of a part in the latter one, hence the asterisk) in the past seven seasons that was above the middle of the pack certainly has me wondering if there was even any tangible value.

But that only really might explain why he’s sitting at home right now, and that’s not what I’m out to do today. Over the first 14 years of Rodriguez’ career — up until the 2005-on tailspin — he amassed an incredible .306/.347/.490 triple-slash. When coupled with his legendary defense, he’s a first-ballot Hall of Famer, at least in my view.

But the hangover from the past seven years have hurt his overall numbers significantly. His career OPS is nearly 40 points lower, and his OPS+ had nearly 10 points shaved off as well. Indeed, pretty much all players have that end-of-career decline in statistics, but it at least seems to me that Rodriguez’ is more stark than others. It almost seems as though Rodriguez is a cautionary tale for those who hang on too long.

Historically speaking, Rodriguez grades out quite favorably among his catcher peers offensively.

Statistic All-Time Rank
Games Played 1st
Hits 1st
Home Runs 7th
RBI 5th
Isolated Power* 15th
wOBA* 25th
wRC+* 30th
WAR 3rd

*Among catchers with 5000 or more PA. 

But from this table we can obviously see the effects of a couple poor terms in office for Mr. Rodriguez, as he’s tops on the counting stats lists, but has tumbled on the rate stat ranks.

So where exactly does this rate Rodriguez overall? Well, WAR would suggest that Rodriguez is the third best backstop of all-time, and that’s probably a good place to start. In essence, Rodriguez’ biggest shortcoming was that he didn’t walk. But he didn’t really have to; he was that good of a hitter and a competent, if unspectacular baserunner. Joking aside, he was the best catcher of this era by a healthy margin — sorry, Mr. Piazza — and for my money, the second best backstop of all-time. What can I say, I just love the defense.

And if he never plays again, I still do sort of wonder what it’ll do to his Hall of Fame case, and if he’s hurt his first ballot chances.





In addition to Rotographs, Warne writes about the Minnesota Twins for The Athletic and is a sportswriter for Sportradar U.S. in downtown Minneapolis. Follow him on Twitter @Brandon_Warne, or feel free to email him to do podcasts or for any old reason at brandon.r.warne@gmail-dot-com

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Brian
12 years ago

i’d take bench, campanella, dickey, berra, cochrane, gibson, and carter before rodriguez easily.

Brian
12 years ago
Reply to  Brandon Warne

even as a diehard giants fan there will always be a soft spot in my heart for campanella.

RationalSportsFan
12 years ago
Reply to  Brandon Warne

Eh, Campanella played through his age 35 season, and hit to the tune of an under-90 OPS+ in his last two years (3.5 WAR total). He probably didn’t have much good baseball left in him. The car accident was tragic, but it’s not like it ruined a blossoming career.

Campanella also lost a year or two at the start of his career as baseball was not yet desegregated. Add those years in and maybe he gets to the low fifties in WAR.

Not in I-Rod’s class, really.

Mac
12 years ago
Reply to  Brandon Warne

“Lost a year or two”

Please. Campy was playing in the Negro Leagues at 16. He was easily MLB ready at 22, the same time Berra was breaking into the league. Give him 4 or 5 lost years, not just a couple. Plus the lost years at the end of the career (those wouldn’t have been great, but would up the counting stats some).

Campy was one of the greatest catchers of all time. WAR is really an awful stat for catchers. Their defensive value is not well understood and playing time varies more than any other position.

No doubt I-Rod is among the top defensive catchers ever, but so were Cochrane, Berra, Dickey, Bench, and Campy. All these guys were considered above-average or better fielders. I-Rod’s WAR is mostly built on defense.

I looked instead at wRC+, and Rodriguez is clearly a class below the other greats. Just about everyone else mentioned in this thread sits at 120 wRC+ or better for their career. I-Rod put up a great, but not elite 104 WRC+ line.

For me the inner circle is Berra, Cochrane, and Bench. Gibson and Campy sit just outside that level. Clear greats who were likely top 5 guys, but neither had top 5 worthy MLB careers.

After them you have the other greats. Dickey, Hartnett, Fisk, maybe Carter?. I-Rod belongs somewhere in this vicinity. Also Piazza, who has the opposite, but worse problem (all-time great bat, no arm).

RationalSportsFan
12 years ago
Reply to  Brandon Warne

I said a “year or two” based off of his minor league numbers as well. He didn’t have his first superstar minor league year until 1948, one year before his MLB debut.

What evidence do you have that his was major league ready at 22?

Mac
12 years ago
Reply to  Brandon Warne

You can read about Campanella’s Negro League career here:

http://www.coe.ksu.edu/nlbemuseum/history/players/campanella.html

Some highlights:

Made three appearances in the East-West game (the NNL version of the All-Star game), the first as a 19 year old.

As a 19 year old, was already batting fifth for his team.

His lifetime average for his nine year Negro League career was .353

He won league MVP in each of his two minor league seasons prior to the MLB call-up.

Hurtlockertwo
12 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Agreed, but Rodriquez is also a HOF player.

Tom
12 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlockertwo

Depends on how writers are handling the PED issue as well.

While there is no definitive proof, Rodriguez is pretty strongly associated with them and has the anecdotal body transitions associated with them… including dropping 20-30 pounds to “slim down” the offseason prior to MLB implementing drug testing.

Between that, playing in Texas (a chemistry club) and a stretch of 140+ games seasons (many in the Texas heat), it leaves me with the strong belief that Rodrgiuez was juicing for at least a good chunk of career.

He was tremendous defensively regardless but his hitting really spiked up and dropped off quickly… while the drop off can happen with catchers, his hitting really didn’t take off until 6 or 7 years into his career which coincided with late 90’s steroid haydays.

Richiemember
12 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlockertwo

What Tom says. They’re making Bagwell wait because they ‘know’ he wasn’t clean. They just as clearly ‘know’ Ivan wasn’t, either. So despite his 1st ballot qualifications, they may still make him wait a couple.

bstar
12 years ago
Reply to  Hurtlockertwo

Brandon,
If there’s punishing to be done by writers, it’s going to be because of PED’s, or suspicion thereof. We saw what happened to Bagwell last year, which was just ridiculous. Of course Ivan should be a first ballot Hall of Famer. If you look at the careers of most catchers in the Hall, you’ll find that most had retired by now. He should probably go ahead and do the same. He doesn’t need 3,000 hits to get in.

RationalSportsFan
12 years ago
Reply to  Brian

Gibson over Rodriguez?

Is there any legitimate way somehow can make this argument? For one guy, we have years of documented greatness. For the other, we have a little bit of documented evidence and thousands of unverified old stories.

Brian
12 years ago

i guess it depends on how much faith you put into those stories. i’m not afraid to consider him a top 5 catcher all time. if the color barrier was broken later we could have been saying the same things about robinson, doby, mays, paige, etc.

Brian
12 years ago
Reply to  Brian

campanella, i believe, was good enough to make the hall of fame if his career followed a more path. given more time he’s a HOFer. kinda like smokey joe wood. thats just my opinion though