Ryan Braun Suspended For Rest of Season

Well, the first shoe in the BioGenesis case has fallen. Faced with the possibility of having the issue continue to linger into 2014, Ryan Braun has agreed to a deal with MLB, and will be suspended for the rest of the 2013 season, which in the Brewers case, amounts to 65 games.

While Braun’s not going to enjoy being suspended, this is actually a pretty good resolution for the Brewers overall. Their 2013 season is obviously finished, and the marginal value of Braun’s contributions this year weren’t really going to matter to the organization. Without him in the line-up, they might even end up with a better draft pick than they would have otherwise in a year where the amateur talent is supposed to be pretty good.

More importantly, this should close the book on the BioGenesis case as far as Braun is concerned, which means that his 2014 status should no longer be in doubt. Braun basically is agreeing to serve a 65 game suspension in a season where those games are meaningless in order to avoid getting suspended in a year where any missed games might impact a pennant race.

For Braun’s own personal legacy and record, this is a blow, but for the Brewers, it’s hard to imagine a better outcome, given that MLB clearly wasn’t going to let this go. Yeah, it’s 65 games, but this is the equivalent of getting pinch hit for in a blow-out. The 2013 Brewers weren’t going anywhere with Ryan Braun, and so now, they put this behind them next spring and try to win with their best player able to spend the whole season on the active roster.

It will be interesting to see how many other players on non-contenders agree to similar deals, putting the appeals process aside and just agreeing to serve their suspensions in lost seasons. If I’m a non-contender and I’ve got a player linked to BioGenesis, I’m strongly urging them to do the same.



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Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.


Sort by:   newest | oldest | most voted
pudieron89
Guest
3 years 2 months ago

Great move by Braun. I really respect him for lying, covering up, and copping out.

ARoid Still Alex
Guest
ARoid Still Alex
3 years 2 months ago

what Melky explained I’m taken by surprise that a dominican can get paid $7031 in one month on the internet to hid ped use. did you see this web site>www.BarryAintTheOnlyOne40.com

Funny
Guest
Funny
3 years 2 months ago

Duno why you’re getting down votes. I guess it’s a problem with reading comprehension. Points for remembering Melky’s hillarious fake website defense strategy.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

I think people read as far as “you can get paid” and assumed it was well disguised spam.

Kris Benson's Wife
Guest
Kris Benson's Wife
3 years 2 months ago

Pretty soon he’ll be snitching on players who will apppeal

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

I respect you, anonymous internet commenter.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

He AGREED to a 65 Game suspension? The dude took steroids, stole an MVP, lied about it, went through great lengths to get his 1st suspension overturned, and now you negotiate a suspension with him?

Warriors
Guest
Warriors
3 years 2 months ago

He made a mistake.

Everyone makes mistakes, and they learn from it and don’t do it again.

Chief Keef
Guest
Chief Keef
3 years 2 months ago

Correction, he made the initial mistake of using the banned substances then he made additional mistakes by arrogantly denying the previous mistake. The man made MISTAKES, as in plural.

PS Braun’s suspension only loses marginal value for a noncontending team? Funny way of describing the face of the franchise admitting he’s been a walking lie. This has effects to the whole franchise. It’s hard for the average fan to continue to support him. I’m not in that crowd, but it’s clearly the popular opinion.

Anan
Guest
Anan
3 years 2 months ago

Actually, he made a “mistake” every day he used. This wasn’t a single regrettable lapse in judgment. This was a premeditated–maybe, given the financial incentives at stake–rational decision made repeatedly over the course of years.

His repeated actions do not warrant our sympathy.

David
Member
David
3 years 2 months ago

I’m a Brewer fan and I couldn’t care less about Braun taking steroids or not. This season is lost anyway so he didn’t hurt the team. In fact, 2011 was a great year to be a Brewer fan and without steroids it probably never would’ve happened.

Clifford
Guest
Clifford
3 years 2 months ago

At this point though, I think the better question to ask is who did NOT take steroids. It would seem as though the vast majority of players were involved.

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

“It would seem as though the vast majority of players were involved.”

Based on what?

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 2 months ago

He also lied about it and questioned the reputation of many others until he had no other choice.

Bill
Guest
Bill
3 years 2 months ago

I think about that lab tech that Braun basically accused of doctoring his sample.

hamjenkinsIII
Member
hamjenkinsIII
3 years 2 months ago

Give Kemp the MVP

Perry
Guest
Perry
3 years 2 months ago

Yeah, because he’s been absolutely wonderful since the 2011 campaign ended.

Dreamin
Guest
Dreamin
3 years 2 months ago

Which makes his 2011 less awesome?

Perry
Guest
Perry
3 years 2 months ago

I was Perry before this guy was Perry. Kemp has been hurt. Remember last April? You can’t hold injured Matt Kemp up next to 2011, MVP Matt Kemp. He’s got a lot left, at least I believe he does.

Tommy
Guest
Tommy
3 years 2 months ago

Irrelevant. Idiot.

NEPP
Guest
NEPP
3 years 2 months ago

Yes, the single year MVP award is well known for being a lifetime achievement award.

Ivdown
Guest
Ivdown
3 years 2 months ago

He had one of the best April’s ever in 2012…I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but he’s dealt with a few injuries since then…

PackBob
Guest
PackBob
3 years 2 months ago

The MVL award.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

I can see that my own feelings are running against the grain on this one. I was absolutley shocked when I saw this post’s title appear.
I was as angry and outspoken as anyone when Braun got off on a technicality last year, but this penalty more than makes up for that free ride. This feels like a violation of double jeopardy to me, and possibly hearsay as well, though technically I suppose it is neither.
Since MLB was itching to lynch him, he undoubtedly made the right decision, as Dave explained. But it smells like rotten fish to me.
The other players would be wise to rush to make a similar deal, whether their team is in contention or not. MLB is out for vengeance.

Dane
Guest
Dane
3 years 2 months ago

Do you understand that double jeopardy is a legal term that prevents an individual with being tried multiple times for the same crime in court?

Not only is MLB not a part of the judicial system, but the 100-game suspension Braun was looking at was for his involvement with BioGenesis, not for his failed drug test in 2011.

Bob M
Guest
Bob M
3 years 2 months ago

And obviously Braun’s PED use is in no way related to Biogenesis at all. Wait… I mean Braun’s involvement with Biogenesis is in no way related to his PED use at all. Wait…

Matty Brown
Member
Member
Matty Brown
3 years 2 months ago

“I have the worst fucking lawyers”

George Bluth, Sr.
Guest
George Bluth, Sr.
3 years 2 months ago

Amen, brother.

T ball
Guest
T ball
3 years 2 months ago

As do I. I’m certain that given the exact same circumstances and choices I would have done exactly the right thing at age 20-whatever with $100+millions at stake. I’m just that righteous.

Bill
Guest
Bill
3 years 2 months ago

I would have done the right thing. Most professional baseball players do make the right decision. Character isn’t so rare.

Sean
Guest
Sean
3 years 2 months ago

Not to mention Braun’s clearly been impacted by the thumb for the last month plus, so the only real net effect is that he won’t get paid while he fully heals. While that sucks for him (it’s about 3M in salary give or take) it’s a drop in the bucket next to the money he’ll make in his most recent extension.

John Choiniere
Member
3 years 2 months ago

Boy, would my fantasy team love it if they’d throw him on the DL because of the thumb now. If that’s even possible.

Blockhead
Member
Blockhead
3 years 2 months ago

Do you fantasy guys even read the articles or only care about fantasy advice?

Sean
Guest
Sean
3 years 2 months ago

Fantasy advice: don’t start Braun

John Choiniere
Member
3 years 2 months ago

I did, and in fact asked some questions in a comment a bit further down. But I also thought about it from a fantasy perspective, and with the thumb injury I thought this was a relevant comment.

Perry
Guest
Perry
3 years 2 months ago

From personal experience, fantasy has opened up the entire baseball universe to me, along with online coverage so greatly improving over the past decade. Fantasy baseball has made me a better baseball fan.

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy
3 years 2 months ago

Perry, that times infinity. I feel like a much more thorough baseball fan after starting fantasy. Makes you care about the whole league, not just your favorite team.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

You have our deepest sympathies. Your sensitivity on this issue has been noted.

mch38
Member
mch38
3 years 2 months ago

Quick trade him to some idiot

Warriors
Guest
Warriors
3 years 2 months ago

“… and any potential postseason games this year.”

At least us Brewer’s fans can get one good laugh out of this.

dan
Guest
dan
3 years 2 months ago

There are still Brewers fans?

Warriors
Guest
Warriors
3 years 2 months ago

Bud Selig.

Bob M
Guest
Bob M
3 years 2 months ago

dan is obviously not a Brewer’s fan. Our dislike for Selig is similar to what Miami fans feel about Jeff Loria – only Bud is around even after he was chased out of town. I suppose that is what happens when you fail to make even an attempt at being competitive, while milking the team for as much profit as you are able.

Bob
Guest
Bob
3 years 2 months ago

This hopefully vindicates the person who took Braun’s test sample.

joyce
Guest
joyce
3 years 2 months ago

common sense already did that, I thought

professionalism
Guest
professionalism
3 years 2 months ago

Indeed, feel exonerated today, Dino Laurenzi Jr. I hope you have a case against Mr. Braun.

Hank
Guest
Hank
3 years 2 months ago

Other than the Braun/PED apologists, was there anyone who really though the test collector was the problem?

NS
Guest
NS
3 years 2 months ago

No, but unfortunately there were an embarrassingly large number of Braun apologists.

Eminor3rd
Member
Eminor3rd
3 years 2 months ago

I imagine his employer did — the guy screwed up protocol enough that the test was embarrassingly ruled meaningless.

Drew
Guest
Drew
3 years 2 months ago

An Apologist.

professionalism
Guest
professionalism
3 years 2 months ago

Braun said:

“There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened.”

Isn’t this slander? There is nothing that Braun or we have learned about the collector to suggest that he tainted the sample. Moreover, the collector alleges he was following company protocol as the sample never left his custody.

Frankly, if there’s someone to feel bad for in all this, it’s Dino Laurenzi–the collector, a regular working guy–who became a disposable pawn and victim of ad hom bullying by Ryan Braun.

rustydude
Member
rustydude
3 years 2 months ago

Yup, his employer was probably not happy. Many people who have excoriated Braun for getting off on a “technicality” probably have no idea how serious the business of handling samples is. Many are learning what the term of chain of custody is, only now. I’ve seen pieces by sports journalists get it wrong and refer to it as chain of command. Sheesh. And still, even now, most laymen don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s absolutely imperative that the collection and transfer of samples follow a strict protocol or the samples have to be discarded and not used. Better to waste one sample than put into doubt the entire process.

Hank
Guest
Hank
3 years 2 months ago

The head of WADA said there was absolutely nothing wrong with the test results. Artificial testosterone metabolites don’t just magically grow in urine over the weekend. The test wasn’t meaningless the issue was the procedure.

Also, the chain of custody was actually not in doubt… it was never broken. Amateur internet lawyers/Braun aplogists keep tossing this phrase around as it sounds significant and official; this would apply if the sample was outside of the collection process (i/e not under the control of someone who was authorized to handle the sample)

The legal argument was that procedure was not followed to specifications and a suspension could not be enforced; this is not the same as the chain of custody was broken.

technicality
Guest
technicality
3 years 2 months ago

This is the way the legal process works, though. If you really, really don’t want to pay a speeding ticket, for example — your multi-million dollar livelihood is at stake, say, and you can afford to pay an expensive legal team to fight it for you — then you challenge everything: question the radar gun designer, the guy that assembled it, and the company that sold it. Has it been in the shop recently? If not, maybe it isn’t being maintained; if it was, clearly there is something wrong with it. Either way, the tech’s competence gets questioned. Was the cop properly trained in its use, and has his technique been checked recently? And so on. Whatever looks like a weak link gets identified, called into question, and dragged through the mud. Over the long term this (mostly, hopefully) produces a more robust process that makes it much harder for the guilty to escape through a technicality, but it’s pretty unpleasant for everyone involved.

BIP
Guest
BIP
3 years 2 months ago

Hank–“Artificial testosterone metabolites don’t just magically grow in urine over the weekend.”

That’s one of the most common stupid, uninformed things people say about Braun’s test. The tests don’t measure “artifical testosterone metabolytes.” They measure T/E ratio. Do you know what a ratio is? A decay in the epitestosterone level of a sample from, say, bacterial contamination from leaving it out on a table rather than refrigerating it, would cause the ratio to increase and could generate a false positive.

Hank
Guest
Hank
3 years 2 months ago

BIP – you realize they do TWO tests to generate a failed drug test result.

The first is the screening test – this looks for elevate d Epi T levels as you stated. As you susspect, this doesn’t identify a substance it is just an indicator which triggers a 2nd test on the sample.

The 2nd is the CIR test which uses mass spectroscopy to identify specific subtances (or tehcnically metabolites of those substance as by the time it is in the urine the cheimcals are broken down to some degree). This test also has to fail for the test result to be considered a failed drug test.

So once again the uninformed Braun/PED apologists will prey on people’s ignorance to misinform and obfuscate.

Or let me simplify this for you – if they only test T ratios, how exactly does one identify the actual anned substance from that. Let’s use Manny as an example 0 the substance in question was identified how? Random lucky guess?

Before you call people uniformed, it might be best to inform yourself on the that topic.

BIP
Guest
BIP
3 years 2 months ago

Probably too late for my reply to be seen, but:

A) I’m aware what a CIR test is, thanks. I also didn’t find any evidence that shows MLB actually does these today. In fact, at the time of Braun’s failed test, they didn’t: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ryan-braun-case-mlb-carbon-isotope-ratio-testing-screen-testosterone-article-1.1028470

B) Regardless, if the T/E ratio of the sample in question did spike by improper handling, they don’t GET to do a CIR test. As you have said, the first test needs to fail (and be valid, i.e. handled properly) before the second is allowed. You have said nothing to dispute my claim about how the T/E ratio could spike.

Perry
Guest
Perry
3 years 2 months ago

If he hadn’t have screwed up the collection, Braun wouldn’t have gotten off… right? He would have served a 50 game suspension last year, and Biogenesis would have triggered a 100 game suspension. This collector saved Braun 1/2 a season of pay. Braun should buy him a boat.

Dan
Guest
Dan
3 years 2 months ago

The collector followed what he “thought” was protocol. It’s the people that didn’t define the protocol beyond any doubt that should be excoriated.

Sparkles Peterson
Guest
Sparkles Peterson
3 years 2 months ago

No, it’s the people who defined the protocol very precisely with arbitrary standards that are at fault. Baseball’s reaction should not be to further complicate the issue by spelling out steps that serve as tripping points without in any way effecting the accuracy of the testing protocol.

dan
Guest
dan
3 years 2 months ago

Piss on him

Retirenutting
Guest
3 years 2 months ago

Even as a Bucs fan, I hope Milwaukee is able to void his contract. What a real piece of work.

Simon
Guest
Simon
3 years 2 months ago

Milwaukee don’t want to void his contract. Why would they do that?

Robert
Guest
Robert
3 years 2 months ago

Braun is lucky to work in the field he does. At my firm, we’ve lost people who–after demonstrating their capacity to do the work required–have been shown to have lied on their resume. Braun’s resume is filled with misrepresentations of his ability.

T ball
Guest
T ball
3 years 2 months ago

And your firm is exactly as exclusive as major league baseball… I agree with you regarding the skills we have but let’s not pretend that MLB is just like any other day job.

Robert
Guest
Robert
3 years 2 months ago

How is exclusivity relevant? And if it is, how do you account for the Bob Davies situation? It’s tougher to be a CFB coach than an MLB player, just in terms of supply and demand.

RC
Guest
RC
3 years 2 months ago

Why would the Brewers want to void his contract? When healthy, he is one of the best 10 players in the MLB and signed to a not terrible contract.

LaLoosh
Guest
LaLoosh
3 years 2 months ago

well, we certainly will see when there is no juice involved. I understand that he was randomly tested but we don’t know what techniques have been used to hide positives, if any. Now nothing can be assumed. Braun is just another in a long line of lying dopers.

Steve holt
Guest
Steve holt
3 years 2 months ago

Doncha love all the guys that compared braun’s 2011 and 2012 numbers and declared “see, no doping” because they were the same?? And this proves that he was doping for both seasons. THAT explains why there was no difference… :-)

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

“And this proves that he was doping for both seasons”

Totally false. Just as false as the folks claiming he was definitively not doping in 2012. We have no idea when he started, and when he stopped, and how often he did it. And we will very likely never know.

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

To state the blindingly obvious, Milwaukee would be completely insane to void that contract. It’s almost inconceivable that PEDs had such an impact on his performance that he’s likely to drop to such a level that his contract wouldn’t be a good one for the Brewers.

If you’re suggesting that they pander to drug war moralists rather than try to win, that’s considerably more indefensible for all kinds of reasons. In addition to being a very poor calculation about what fans actually care about, it might also make other players think twice about signing with the organization, knowing that they might look for a technicality to get out of the contract later.

Hank
Guest
Hank
3 years 2 months ago

The other thing to keep in mind is the new CBA altered the testing program which should make it a bit harder to get past the fast acting stuff.

Under the old system there was a one size fits all Epi T/T ratio which had to be set high as testosterone levels will vary from player to player.

Under the new system they collect baseline data on the player and use that (plus some trigger level) to trigger a failed test.

Hank
Guest
Hank
3 years 2 months ago

Not sure why that post above ended up there. Apologies.

Jim
Guest
Jim
3 years 2 months ago

It’s inconceivable PEDs had such an impact on his performance? How’s Toronto enjoying that Melky Cabrera deal? How are the Yankees enjoying that Alex Rodriguez deal? Carlos Ruiz is currently hitting with a WRC+ 88 points lower than when he was suspended for steroids. Yasmani Grandal is hitting 46 points lower in WRC+ than before he got suspended for steroids.

Before this year, the entire list, in all of baseball history, of players who’ve been suspended for steroids and then returned to be significant positive contributors is Mike Cameron. This year, Bartolo Colon and Marlon Byrd have been positive forces to varying extents. I wouldn’t be the tiniest bit surprised to see Ryan Braun be a 3 WAR / year player from here out.

Chooch
Guest
Chooch
3 years 2 months ago

Ruiz was using adderall not steroids. On top of that he is a catcher and has been hurt this year too.

Ruki Motomiya
Member
Ruki Motomiya
3 years 2 months ago

Well, the Yankees have gotten 49 WAR since A-Rod became a Yankee, which considering he used steroids while on the Rangers it counts…and 20 WAR since 2008, which was the first year after his new contract. At 5 million per WAR, he has provided $100 million in value over just 5 years and 4 seasons, so even if they have to pay out the rest of his contract, it is hard to say A-Rod has not been good with them (And helped them win World Series, see: 2009).

So I imagine the Yankees are pretty happy.

Daren Hill
Guest
Daren Hill
3 years 2 months ago

By that argument, Braun has been using PED for 10+ years. Look at his batting stats from Miami to the Minors to MLB. They are remarkably consistent.

His performance has thus been forever enhanced. Or completely unaffected.

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

Ladies and Gentlemen, Retirenutnazi.

Cidron
Member
Cidron
3 years 2 months ago

now, voiding A-Rod’s contract.. thats a real possibility ! (once his suspension is announced and/or he accepts it).

Simon
Guest
Simon
3 years 2 months ago

Is Braun’s acceptance of the suspension a sign that the MLBPA are content that the accused players are guilty, and that there may be few, if any, appeals?

Hurtlockertwo
Guest
Hurtlockertwo
3 years 2 months ago

Braun’s statement, accepting guilt to me.
“As I have acknowledged in the past, I am not perfect,” Braun said. “I realize now that I have made some mistakes. I am willing to accept the consequences of those actions. This situation has taken a toll on me and my entire family, and it has been a distraction to my teammates and the Brewers organization. I am very grateful for the support I have received from players, ownership and the fans in Milwaukee and around the country. Finally, I wish to apologize to anyone I may have disappointed – all of the baseball fans especially those in Milwaukee, the great Brewers organization, and my teammates. I am glad to have this matter behind me once and for all, and I cannot wait to get back to the game I love.”

NS
Guest
NS
3 years 2 months ago

What a coward. Written (or at least heavily revised) by his lawyers and PR people no doubt, every line of that statement is dodgy and disingenuous.

Yeah
Guest
Yeah
3 years 2 months ago

I’m sure his agent received a copy to look over as well, if the agent didn’t write it himself that is.

FeslenR
Guest
FeslenR
3 years 2 months ago

better than Rafael Finger Pointing Palmeiro…

Joe
Guest
Joe
3 years 2 months ago

notice how’s there’s no reference as to what he actually might be apologizing about. just references to general “mistakes”

avocet
Member
avocet
3 years 2 months ago

Yeah, there’s zero chance Braun wrote any of that himself.

Cidron
Member
Cidron
3 years 2 months ago

Hey, at least he stood up like a man this time and accepted it. Go back a little to the early years of the ped witchhunt. Everybody remembers the Sosa’s, Palmiero’s, McGwires… but, we forget that Pettitte also tested positive. The difference then, He was forthright and accepted that he did it. Didnt hide it etc etc. We now pretty much accept him back into the baseball community on an even level of respect etc as those that havent been tested positive. If Braun can reclaim that, by standing up like a man and saying he did it (like Pettitte did some years ago), who knows. He is well liked up in Milwaukee, and MLB as a whole..

phgold09
Guest
phgold09
3 years 2 months ago

except he’s already blown that chance by vehemently denying he used…. and then he got caught again

whoops i really didnt mean to deny it so violently last time, i got bad advice from my legal team, now im serious guys…. i reallly am sorry

Cidron
Member
Cidron
3 years 2 months ago

it can happen. first time, think you can get away with it. but, you learn.

Blurs
Guest
Blurs
3 years 2 months ago

He should prove he’s clean for the rest of his career by pissing on Bud Selig and then letting him wring out his clothes for the sample.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

You should be banned for this.

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

Gosh even CHRIS thought that was a little over-the-top…

Bill
Guest
Bill
3 years 2 months ago

I would be in favor for more rigorous testing throughout the careers of guys who have tested positive. The Manny situation shows that guys won’t necessarily stop once they are caught.

Hamba
Member
Hamba
3 years 2 months ago

What happens to the money from his salary during suspension? Milwauke doesn’t just keep it, right?

Spencer
Guest
Spencer
3 years 2 months ago

I’ve heard that it might stay with the league is some form, pretty sure Milwaukee is still on hook for all the money he is owed but rather than going to him I *think* it goes to the league.

edon
Guest
edon
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means

tommy
Guest
tommy
3 years 2 months ago

they pay it to MLB instead of Braun

y54y45y
Guest
y54y45y
3 years 2 months ago

no chance of an appeal right?
make roster moves now?

MikeS
Guest
MikeS
3 years 2 months ago

It says he “…agreed to a deal,” so an appeal would not really make any sense.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

The guy is nothing more than a lying low life snitch.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

Whom has he snitched on?

Bob M
Guest
Bob M
3 years 2 months ago

Himself, apparently.

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

Cue the moral grandstanding.

Rich Mahogany
Guest
Rich Mahogany
3 years 2 months ago

Braun engaged in plenty of that when he won his appeal.

edon
Guest
edon
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

Which?

NS
Guest
NS
3 years 2 months ago

Speaking for myself, the simple fact that he cheated is not all that bothersome to me. Yes, I dislike it. But I suspect PED use is rampant and I can get my head around players getting caught up in it.

It’s Braun’s lying and *Braun’s* grandstanding when he was caught – even going so far as to disparage the professional reputations of those involved in exposing the truth – that stirs my contempt. He has gone to absurd lengths of dishonesty and manipulations to preserve his own status and wealth. Condemnation is appropriate.

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

It must be nice to feel so assured in your superiority.

NS
Guest
NS
3 years 2 months ago

It must be nice to feel superior to those who feel assured in their superiority.

See what a goofy game that is?

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

No

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

How’s the internet in HEAVEN, GUYS?

professionalism
Guest
professionalism
3 years 2 months ago

How’s your anarchy where no one has the capacity to make rules or hand out judgments?

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

In a thread ruled by inbred quasi-racist moralizers, every downvote is tantamount to an upvote.

Yeah
Guest
Yeah
3 years 2 months ago

@Bleauj The internet in Heaven is pretty nice actually.

^Definitely Not an Anti-Semite
Guest
^Definitely Not an Anti-Semite
3 years 2 months ago

Fully fibre optic with no bandwidth caps, I presume? Better describe it for me, as this is clearly the closest I’m ever going to get.

Brian
Guest
Brian
3 years 2 months ago

Am I the only one that doesn’t care that he lied?

Yeah, I would have lied too.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

There wasn’t a pinch of moral grandstanding in this post.

wootwoot
Guest
wootwoot
3 years 2 months ago

If Selig ever did one thing right during his tenure as commissioner, it was this; relentlessly trying to suspend Braun. MLB had Braun dead-to-rights last time, and lost merely on a technicality, and I applaud Bud for not giving up. What makes Braun’s lying even more despicable is that him unfairly implicated the test sample collector (and his son).

Glad to see the garbage is finally taken out to the curb!

RC
Guest
RC
3 years 2 months ago

Yes the best thing Selig could do is make up for a lost suspension because the chain of custody wasn’t followed. Because even if it wasn’t relevant to his failed test, we shouldn’t worry how this example might make other people think chain of custody isn’t important. And we shouldn’t worry that viewing chain of custody as unimportant could lead to many future cases where tests could be affected.

wootwoot
Guest
wootwoot
3 years 2 months ago

It’s important that due process is always followed. I’m just saying Braun didn’t have to say anything after being cleared after the hearing, yet he went out of his way to criticize the test collector. That was a despicable act, knowing in his own mind, that he was guilty.

RC
Guest
RC
3 years 2 months ago

If that’s right about the comments, then I agree.

Ctownboy
Guest
Ctownboy
3 years 2 months ago

If Selig had cared anything about PED’s he and Jerry Reinsdorf wouldn’t have staged a palace coup that had Fay Vincent resign as Commissioner.

As an attorney, Vincent KNEW steroid use was going on and that it was against the law. He wrote a memo to the teams and players in 1991 saying that if steroid and PED use was found that the players could be suspended or banned from the sport. Of course, this wasn’t in the collective bargaining agreement, the Players Union was against it and the Commissioner really couldn’t do anything about it BUT, he at least stood up and said something.

Vincent saw how dangerous the use of steroids and PED’s were, not only for health reasons of the players, not only for the illegality of their use but also for the honesty and integrity of MLB. I am fairly certain if he hadn’t been ousted, Vincent would have pushed hard for rules concerning steroids and other PED’s to be put into the next Collective Bargaining Agreement.

No, Selig didn’t give a darn about steroids and PED’s when he became the commish and didn’t for a LOOOOOOOONG time. He only cared about the power he could yield.

wootwoot
Guest
Jamie
Guest
Jamie
3 years 2 months ago

I hate the “he got off on a technicality” idea. He got off on a rule negotiated in the CBA. Just like how PED use was banned. That must be suspended on a technicality

Jon L.
Guest
Jon L.
3 years 2 months ago

Rules are not made to be rules; they’re made to serve intentions. The goal here was not to let guilty players off due to arbitrary details, but to make it impossible to wrongly find players guilty. The system failed, even though the rules were followed. Hence, he *did* get off on a technicality.

Jamie
Guest
Jamie
3 years 2 months ago

No, I have to disagree. The players agree d to provide samples for testing, provided that they were handled in the agreed to way. This was part of the CBA. MLB failed to handle said sample in the agreed to way, so it was not tested in the way set out in the CBA, which was against the rules. That Braun has since been caught does not make MLB right the first time.

Ctownboy
Guest
Ctownboy
3 years 2 months ago

That is one thing that HAS to be changed in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, players being able to serve PED related suspensions while on the DL.

Edinson Volquez was on the DL after Tommy John surgery. He was caught using a banned substance and was allowed to serve his suspension while still on the DL. What good does that do? Break the rules, serve your time while you are already not playing and then be able to come back and compete.

How about get caught using PED’s or other banned substances and having to serve your time when you are actually eligible to play. This not only hurts the player but the team they play for.

Hurtlockertwo
Guest
Hurtlockertwo
3 years 2 months ago

For the player, you don’t get paid. That could equal millions in many cases.

Ctownboy
Guest
Ctownboy
3 years 2 months ago

True. But being able to use steroids or other PED’s while on the DL allows a player to get back to playing actual games that matter. Thus, possibly helping his team win games they might not win and putting up stats they might not put up.

Getting a 50 or 100 game ban while you KNOW you still have 3 to 6 months left as far as recovery time doesn’t mean very much in the grand scheme of things. Come back healthy and strong, put up good numbers and help your team win and, guess what, the money you lost because of the suspension will be more than made up for when your next salary arbitration hearing occurs, free agency occurs or a contract extension happens.

Pay a guy while he is on the DL and not playing and THEN suspend him without pay when he is healthy and eligible to play and THAT will send a message to both the players and the teams…..

JayT
Guest
JayT
3 years 2 months ago

The thing is, the suspensions aren’t intended to be against the team, just the player. Losing 50 games worth of money is the biggest part of the punishment.

wily mo
Member
3 years 2 months ago

it’s hard to see a real way around that as a loophole, if a guy’s hurt. they could always just activate him from the DL, say he’s ready to play and let him serve the suspension even though he’s actually still hurt. how would you police it

Ctownboy
Guest
Ctownboy
3 years 2 months ago

Tommy John surgery usually takes a minimum of 12 months to recover from. I am pretty sure Volquez was only 6 or so months into his recovery when he was caught using PED’s. So suspending him 50 games when he had, at a minimun, 3 months of recovery time left to do didn’t really hurt him or the Reds very much.

As for other injuries, there could be outside medical experts who could be consulted to verify whether an injury has healed properly or not.

wily mo
Member
3 years 2 months ago

i think it’s a bigger deal than you’re suggesting for teams to give up their medical judgments to some outside force. i’m not saying it’s inconceivable that it’d ever happen under any circumstances, but, they’re certainly not going to want to do it

nod
Guest
nod
3 years 2 months ago

that would burn a roster spot

wily mo
Member
3 years 2 months ago

to the extent the suspension burns a roster spot, it’s going to burn a roster spot whenever it occurs. (does it even burn a roster spot? do you mean a 25-man roster spot or a 40-man roster spot?)

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

Why would a team do that?

wily mo
Member
3 years 2 months ago

to burn off the suspension during a period of time when the player wouldn’t be playing anyway? i don’t get how this is not obvious

Kevin
Guest
Kevin
3 years 2 months ago

Braun isn’t on DL, has already appeared in last three games. Are you bringing this up as an entirely separate topic?

Sean
Guest
Sean
3 years 2 months ago

Played about 15 innings in those games though. If he can’t go more than 2 9-inning games at a time, how healthy is he?

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

That is one thing that HAS to be changed in the Collective Bargaining Agreement, players being able to serve PED related suspensions while on the DL.

I don’t understand why fans think they’re a stakeholder in this. It’s the players privacy being violated by tests, the players health being potentially threatened by pressure to use PEDs if they’re not banned. Let them figure out how to trade off those two things, and negotiate with the owners, who have a legitimate stake given the PR issue here.

But you and me? Fans and sportswriters? The nitty gritty details of the CBA as they relate to drug tests and penalties and such? None of our business.

Dave S (the original)
Guest
Dave S (the original)
3 years 2 months ago

If you don’t understand why fans are “stakeholders” in this… explain to me: why are you commenting on a baseball related blog/website entitled “Fangraphs”?

If you don’t understand why fans are “stakeholders” in this… explain to me: why are citizens’ tax monies going to rich businessmen in order to build them new baseball parks, that the businessmen will profit from?

If you don’t understand why fans are stakeholders in this… explain to me: why does baseball still have anti-trust exemption?

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

Not to mention where does all that revenue come from? It couldn’t be the customers, or as we call them in sports the fans, could it?

Let’s just say, for the sake of this crazy hypothetical, that the fans were the source of all the money in baseball. If that were the case then, maybe, all those who profit from baseball might want to, I don’t know, incorporate the desires of the fans in some way?

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

If you don’t understand why fans are “stakeholders” in this… explain to me: why are you commenting on a baseball related blog/website entitled “Fangraphs”?

I’m commenting because I’m a fan of baseball. Why would you assume being a fan makes you a stakeholder?

We’re consumers. I may go to the movies, but I don’t have a stake in the SAG contract negotiations. I drive a Ford, but policy governing auto workers isn’t my business; it’s between the UAW and Ford Motors. Furthermore, it’s the players health concerns trading off with the players privacy. Those are both reasonable concerns, why do I get to tell them how they should weight them against each other?

Why is baseball different than every other sector?

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

why are citizens’ tax monies going to rich businessmen in order to build them new baseball parks,

Because we have bad politicians, who pander to rich assholes rather than serve the public good. That’s a pretty universal problem. My city gave a Health Care company a ridiculous subsidy on a fancy new downtown building. That doesn’t mean I get to demand the nurses that work for them pee in a cup.

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

If that were the case then, maybe, all those who profit from baseball might want to, I don’t know, incorporate the desires of the fans in some way?

Since the owners are a stakeholder and they care about profits, this is well accounted for. And, to state the obvious, drug war moralism is cheap and shallow; a small group of fans like to get worked up about it, but there’s scant evidence it translates into attendance and spending in any meaningful way. But nevertheless, the owners were worried about PR, which is perfectly reasonable, so they negotiated a testing regime in the CBA, which is their right.

Brian
Guest
Brian
3 years 2 months ago

That happened to Freddy Galvis last year as well.

Curtis
Guest
Curtis
3 years 2 months ago

Makes sense for Braun. Wendy Thurm outlined ‘nuclear’ option pretty well, regardless of whether he was guilty or innocent or whatever he was getting suspended.

Reaffirms two things for me:

Braun not going public says he probably did juice.

MLB was suspending these guys regardless of whether they did or didn’t cheat just to try to stamp clinics like these out.

Mcneildon
Guest
Mcneildon
3 years 2 months ago

If you read Braun’s comment it sounds like he is admitting that he did use PEDs without flat-out saying it.
““As I have acknowledged in the past, I am not perfect,” Braun said. “I realize now that I have made some mistakes. I am willing to accept the consequences of those actions…..
Finally, I wish to apologize to anyone I may have disappointed – all of the baseball fans especially those in Milwaukee, the great Brewers organization, and my teammates.”

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

This hurts the players, not the clinic, which is not even in business anymore.

O'Jones
Guest
O'Jones
3 years 2 months ago

DC has it spot on. braun issued a textbook “mistakes were made” and admitted to nothing in particular. this says nothing about how much or little evidence there was and everything about what a distraction mlb was going to be for braun and the brewers. this was a deal to serve a meaningless sentence in a year when games mean nothing and lose part of an 8.5M salary instead of a 10.5M salary and get the commish to shut the hell up.

The Humber Games
Guest
The Humber Games
3 years 2 months ago

How exactly does this say nothing about the evidence? Braun has clearly demonstrated before that he will take a case to appeal if he thinks he can win. The ‘mlb bullied him into it because it was too much of a distraction’ argument is mostly wishful thinking…I understand that people sometimes plead guilty when they’re innocent, but in this case Braun would’ve had the MLBPA going to bat for him, and the only reason you drop an appeal is because you’re the losing side doing damage control. Guarantee that quid pro quo from mob is that the evidence against him doesn’t come out

The Humber Games
Guest
The Humber Games
3 years 2 months ago

*mlb not mob…stupid spell check

NS
Guest
NS
3 years 2 months ago

“this says nothing about how much or little evidence there was”

Absurd. It doesn’t *prove* anything about what evidence there was, but it very strongly suggests the case against Braun was substantial.

Sean
Guest
Sean
3 years 2 months ago

Our own Wendy Thrum has written convincingly about how the case against him actually didn’t HAVE to be substantial.

Bob M
Guest
Bob M
3 years 2 months ago

Or it strongly suggests that Braun is serving his suspension during a meaningless portion of a wasted season, only to remove the Sword of Damocles from the Brewers organization as they attempt to reload for 2014.

John Choiniere
Member
3 years 2 months ago

1) Interesting that the PA was okay with this
2) Does this count against him in terms of “strikes” violating the drug policy? If so, how many?

Bud S, ruler of all he surveys
Guest
Bud S, ruler of all he surveys
3 years 2 months ago

This will count as a strike…TWO, two strikes, we shall count this heinous and despicable offense as two…THREE. Three strikes. In keeping with the tradition of baseball we shall judge this to be THREE…FOUR. Four strikes. Just the four.

Not more than five or strike me dead.

Six? Done.

Donald Trump
Guest
Donald Trump
3 years 2 months ago

Amazing day. Please don’t suspend my fantasy players this season.

The Humber Games
Guest
The Humber Games
3 years 2 months ago

Today’s news should also be taken in the context of his self-righteousness after previously winning his appeal:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57384766/ryan-braun-im-a-victim-of-a-process/

col buendia
Guest
col buendia
3 years 2 months ago

Short term, I buy this. More losses=better draft pick. Long term though…is this a really a rosy outcome for the Brewers? This adds a huge wrench into the Brewers FO planning. What is their window now? What can they realistically expect from Braun going forward? If they can expect 2011 Braun, in 2014, then they could (should?) be competitive during his remaining years. If they get 65-70% of 2011 Braun going forward–well, should they be looking to shop everything but Segura?

Worse yet, there really isn’t an answer to what we can expect from Braun going forward, which would seem to push potential decision making back from 2014 to 2015.

chuckb
Guest
chuckb
3 years 2 months ago

Probably mlb had so much evidence that Braun was going to end up suspended anyway. Through this deal, the Brewers speed up the clock on it, get it done when the games don’t matter, and get certainty in the outcome.

If this dragged on, the inevitable suspension might have occurred in games that matter and might have been substantially longer. The doubts & PR hit were inevitable so this is the Brewers’ best case scenario.

col buendia
Guest
col buendia
3 years 2 months ago

Again, I think that misses the gestalt of where the Brewers are right now as a franchise. I think the preferable outcome would have been for him to start his suspension in late August. That way, he gets in 150-200 healthy PAs. SSS and all, it’s still information about what kind of player Braun will be post-PED. And that information is essential for the Brewers FO to make strategic decisions this winter in an effort to best answer the question: who do the Brewers want to be in 2014 and 2015. To me, that’s worth the cost of winning 3 extra games.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

It’s a win for the Brewers. They don’t have to pay Braun for the rest of a losing season. I’ll bet the Yankees are praying for a lifetime ban for A-Rod.

Brian
Guest
Brian
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t think it really changes anything about the Brewers expectations of Braun.

They probably already knew the truth long ago (whatever that may be), so the mere fact that he got suspended, in and of itself, changes nothing for the organization.

JS7
Member
JS7
3 years 2 months ago

65 games is not enough. Braun specifically should be gone from the league.

He is a complete liar and stole an MVP trophy. He deserves to be banned for life.

RC
Guest
RC
3 years 2 months ago

Do you really think Braun is the first or last liar in the league? I’m positive there are many more out there. At least he wasn’t racist like Cobb or Hornsby. At least he doesn’t set people on fire like Ugueth Urbina. I’m not defending him, but to act like he is the only douche bag in the league is ridiculous.

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 2 months ago

They banned Pete Rose for life and his transgressions were far less damaging to the game than Braun cheating several times.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Pete Rose bet on his team, Braun did something every ball player does because nobody gives a shit.

JayT
Guest
JayT
3 years 2 months ago

Really? Betting is “far less damaging”? You do know that the 1919 Sox almost killed the MLB, right?

chuckb
Guest
chuckb
3 years 2 months ago

This is just silly.

Ian R.
Guest
Ian R.
3 years 2 months ago

If you personally believe that PEDs are more damaging to the game than betting on games, that’s your right.

Nevertheless, the rules say that the penalties for drug offenses go like so:

50 games (first offense), 100 games (second offense), lifetime ban (third offense)

And the penalties for betting on games go like so:

Lifetime ban (first offense)

Joe
Guest
Joe
3 years 2 months ago

reminder: Pete Rose originally agreed to banned from the league.

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

far less damaging to the game

Wow, just wow. Drug war moralism is, ironically, a hell of a drug.

Gareth
Guest
Gareth
3 years 2 months ago

Pete Rose’s ban is a permanent ban, not a life ban.

wily mo
Member
3 years 2 months ago

i thought urbina just *tried* to set people on fire. there’s a difference between trying to set people on fire, and actually setting them on fire

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

That is a fucking joke of a comment

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

You’re probably racist.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

And you’re definitely an ass.

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

Do you believe in due process? If you were working under a contract that specified a suspension for a particular policy violation, and you were fired instead regardless of said contract, how would you feel about that?

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 2 months ago

Since when did FanGraphs turn into Bleacher Report?

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

Ban him for life.

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 2 months ago

“And all I did was place a bet.”

– Pete Rose.

Hurtlockertwo
Guest
Hurtlockertwo
3 years 2 months ago

The rule is: “Rule 21 MISCONDUCT, (d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES, Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.”

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

Maybe Pete Rose was betting if Braun was clean or not.

Brian
Guest
Brian
3 years 2 months ago

Whether or not that’s a good rule is another argument though.

Robert
Guest
Robert
3 years 2 months ago

It is? It seems like a very good rule if the idea is preserving the integrity of the on-field product.

Warriors
Guest
Warriors
3 years 2 months ago

Stop this nonsense! I have a fantasy league to win.

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 2 months ago

Totally agree! I have Melky, Peralta, Cruz, and Gonzalez. Fml.

rustydude
Member
rustydude
3 years 2 months ago

Good luck!

Excelsior
Guest
Excelsior
3 years 2 months ago

Thank God, the game is safe again.

Blurs
Guest
Blurs
3 years 2 months ago

Ken Griffey Jr.

My favourite clean slugger in the steroid era.

The Humber Games
Guest
The Humber Games
3 years 2 months ago

The Big Hurt is right up there in my book

Cleveland
Guest
Cleveland
3 years 2 months ago

Jim Thome is up there.

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

Let’s make up more fictions to comfort ourselves.

chuckb
Guest
chuckb
3 years 2 months ago

I sincerely hope all 3 of you are right, but there is absolutely no way to know for sure. We can assume them to be clean, but we don’t really know. They’re deserving Hall of Famers but so are Bagwell and Piazza and some people refused to vote for them on very similar assumptions. To me, it’s just wrong of us to make any assumptions about players from that era vis-a-vis PEDs.

Mcneildon
Guest
Mcneildon
3 years 2 months ago

I hope those three were clean, and I’m not suggesting otherwise, but it’s impossible to say they were clean with any certainty. It’s not their responsibility to prove they were clean and nobody should assume they did use steroids, but you can’t know for sure. And, I know that isn’t fair to some extent in that it’s hard or impossible to prove a negative.

Jim
Guest
Jim
3 years 2 months ago

In Thomas’ case, at least, it would be very, very strange if it ever turned out that he had used steroids, since he was such a constant vocal critic of steroid use.

Mcneildon
Guest
Mcneildon
3 years 2 months ago

I agree, but highly improbable or unlikely is not enough for me to declare somebody as having been a “clean” slugger in an era when many were not. That being said, I assume they didn’t use steroids, I just can’t be certain.

Hurtlockertwo
Guest
Hurtlockertwo
3 years 2 months ago

65 games seems somewhat arbitrary?? What if a guy makes a deal in two weeks, does he do only 51 games??

Tracker Maker
Guest
Tracker Maker
3 years 2 months ago

The 65 games is calculated in a simple formula.

SUSP = (SUSP1 * 50) + (BIOGEN1 * 100) / (2.31 * BARGAIN1)

A-Rod
Guest
A-Rod
3 years 2 months ago

“Suspend me for PEDs? They didn’t even work!”

Ryan Braun
Guest
Ryan Braun
3 years 2 months ago

“They obviously mishandled my urine-sample AGAIN…”

Matt Kemp
Guest
Matt Kemp
3 years 2 months ago

“So when do I receive my MVP trophy?”

hamjenkinsIII
Member
hamjenkinsIII
3 years 2 months ago

MVP MVP MVP

Jon L.
Guest
Jon L.
3 years 2 months ago

Get in line behind Mike Greenwell and a couple of Albert Pujolses and a handful of other guys.

Justin Morneau
Guest
Justin Morneau
3 years 2 months ago

Where do I get in line?

rageous
Guest
rageous
3 years 2 months ago

It feels like Braun intentionally came back early from his injury so he can serve his suspension this year. Regardless he has shown to be complete douchebag and a self serving a-hole in how he handled last year’s positive drug test.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

Huh?

Esoteric
Guest
Esoteric
3 years 2 months ago

There has been plenty of speculation (particularly from sportswriters familiar with the grumblings of the Brewers front office) that Braun knowingly came back from his injury before he was fully healed precisely because his legal team had gamed out the plea bargain strategy and he needed “time” to give up as a bargaining chit. If he was still on the DL then a suspension “until the end of the season” would be significantly diminished in terms of its punitive value, given that the money Braun loses is calculated on a per game basis.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

This is stupid, incredibly stupid. Suspensions for steroids in general are stupid, but the witch hunt for this BioGenesis horseshit is just absurd beyond comparison.

Excelsior
Guest
Excelsior
3 years 2 months ago

What, a coerced witness isn’t reliable enough for you?

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

Well they seem to have physical evidence so I’m not sure what you’re suggesting here…

Excelsior
Guest
Excelsior
3 years 2 months ago

It’s not necessarily fruit of the poisonous tree, but it’s awfully damn close.

Avon Barksdale
Guest
Avon Barksdale
3 years 2 months ago

It’s not always about business, String

The Humber Games
Guest
The Humber Games
3 years 2 months ago

I was completely on the same page as you until Braun refused to appeal. I thought this was an embarrassment for MLB that was going to go nowhere, but now it’s time to consider that there may be more to this BioGenesis evidence than was previously let on.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t give a damn about PED use in the first place, the affects are minimal at best.

NS
Guest
NS
3 years 2 months ago

A fascinating conclusion. I’d love to see some of your research.

The Humber Games
Guest
The Humber Games
3 years 2 months ago

The fact that 6 of the top 15 all time home run leaders have been outed for PED usage suggests that the affects are more than ‘minimal’.

chuckb
Guest
chuckb
3 years 2 months ago

You don’t really know that any more than those that claim they have a huge impact on performance know that.

bubbles
Guest
bubbles
3 years 2 months ago

Take a reproductive physiology class and you can understand too!

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Here’s some readings for everyone:

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

And as for the “6 of the top 15 all time home run leaders= PED usage” crap, I’m sure it has nothing to do with the MLB juicing the crap out of the ball to increase scoring post strike. Or the fact that baseball is a series of cycles. Or that maybe, just maybe, we have had some of the greatest power hitters of all time in the modern era. Nah, has to be steroids because that’s the easy conclusion.

Jon L.
Guest
Jon L.
3 years 2 months ago

Proven affects of PED usage include increased power, faster recovery from injury, foul language, bad spelling, and misplaced aggression.

Ryan Braun, Manny Ramirez, etc.
Guest
Ryan Braun, Manny Ramirez, etc.
3 years 2 months ago

Why didn’t you tell us this earlier? We risked our legacies for minimal, at best, gains?

Sean
Guest
Sean
3 years 2 months ago

String, you ever stop to think, maybe you are a man without a country. Not hard enough for in here and maybe, just maybe, not smart enough for them out there?

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

Agreed. It’s embarrassing all around.

TKDC
Guest
TKDC
3 years 2 months ago

Not looking the other way =/= witch hunt

bob
Guest
bob
3 years 2 months ago

no verlander?

James
Guest
James
3 years 2 months ago

“Sucker.”

Barry Bonds
Guest
Barry Bonds
3 years 2 months ago

Sucker.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

There are two similar, yet distinct questions to consider concerning what length of suspension would provide an adequate deterrent. First, what length of suspension would provide an adequate deterrent to someone making a reasonable cost/benefit analysis? (This seems to be the question you are tackling.) Second, what length of suspension would provide an adequate deterrent to actual players performing their cost/benefit analyses? This question is the most relevant one in terms of practical application (i.e. ACTUALLY trying to deter players from using PEDs).

My first reaction is that there might not be an suspension long enough to deter most players who intend on using. Human beings regularly make irrational decisions when there is a potential huge payout involved. Think of how many people play the lottery even when many of them know the odds are strongly against them. If a player sees a potential payout of millions of dollars, his cost/benefit analysis is likely to be flawed.

Ctownboy
Guest
Ctownboy
3 years 2 months ago

You want a deterrent? Here is one for you.

First failure of a test for PED’s or other banned subtances = a one year ban from the game and the termination of your contract. When you are eligible to come back, you get paid the MLB minimum salary with no bonuses or other income of any kind.

A second failed test would mean a permanent ban from the game. No Hall Of Fame consideration, no ability to be a manager, coach, scout or any other type of employment with or associated to MLB.

The players who cheat do so for money and ego (or both). Take the money away and take the forum away that feeds their ego and the need/want to cheat will be greatly diminished.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Oh my that’s stupid.

cable fixer
Guest
cable fixer
3 years 2 months ago

Braun wasn’t making an irrational decision at all. The logic behind his decision was self-evident. There were enormous financial incentives for improved performance whereas the downside risk of PED use were naught. Moreover, this decision making has been vindicated by today’s judgment…65 games without pay? Sounds like a small price to pay to get his (unavoidable) contract.

placidity
Guest
3 years 2 months ago

The contract he signed in April 2011? Before the positive test or any of this Biogenesis stuff? The one that will take him through at least 2020? Seems like his incentives to take PEDs would have actually been drastically lower in 2011 than at any other point in his career.

Robert
Guest
Robert
3 years 2 months ago

Curious–when did this biogenesis stuff occur?

Old School
Guest
Old School
3 years 2 months ago

If I ran baseball, there would be a testing lab in every ball park, and a player couldn’t even be in the clubhouse to dress until he turned in his pee cup. Baseball doesn’t even test a player unless there is “probable cause” to link the player to drug use. If you’re careful, like Usain Bolt, and only beat the field by a little bit there’s no real probable cause to stand on if you’re MLB. Test these guys before every single game, and you’ll find out real fast who is and who isn’t using. That might just ruin the entire sport, however, because there’s got to be enough players in each clubhouse to dramatically affect the 25 and 40 man rosters.

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

Your obsessive interest in other people’s urine is creepy as hell.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

Hey, everyone’s got a thing, his just happens to be urine.

Warriors
Guest
Warriors
3 years 2 months ago

So Ryan Braun, aka the Hebrew Hammer, is now the Jewcer?

I Agree Guy
Guest
I Agree Guy
3 years 2 months ago

I shouldn’t have laughed, but I did.

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 2 months ago

I say legalize PEDs – I want to see someone throw 120 mph fastball and hit an 800 ft homerun in the same game

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Yeah, because PEDs morph you into a God.

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

Yeah, because I haven’t heard this stand-up act seven thousand times.

Ryan Braun, Manny Ramirez, etc.
Guest
Ryan Braun, Manny Ramirez, etc.
3 years 2 months ago

Uh, Captain America?

Dirck
Guest
Dirck
3 years 2 months ago

Screw Ryan Braun . I feel great that I traded him straight up for Bryce Harper before last season started in a dynasty league and that I traded Gio in a package for Trout early this year in the same league .

Anon21
Guest
Anon21
3 years 2 months ago

shut up shut up shut up

Anan
Guest
Anan
3 years 2 months ago

Where’s Jered Weaver in these 2B ranks?

Well-Beered Englishman
Guest
Well-Beered Englishman
3 years 2 months ago

Two problems
1. Gio’s innocent
2. Nobody cares

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

FINALLY SOMEONE THOUGHT OF tHE CHILDREN

The Wizzinator
Guest
The Wizzinator
3 years 2 months ago

We still got your back Ryan!

Onterrio Smith
Guest
Onterrio Smith
3 years 2 months ago

Damn right!

Phillies boy
Guest
Phillies boy
3 years 2 months ago

Ryan “Big Piece” Howard is clean.

mch38
Member
mch38
3 years 2 months ago

The only roids Howard does anymore is “bench-roiding”….I’ll see myself out

Patrick
Guest
Patrick
3 years 2 months ago

Dave,
I remember an article of yours where you discussed confirmation bias and how we should not assume Ryan Braun was guilty when he tested dirty.

I agreed with your logic at the time, but I could not bring myself to think Braun was innocent.

To this day, before this story broke, I still was convinced of his guilt.

How is that for confirmation bias?

wily mo
Member
3 years 2 months ago

no one cares about your fantasy team

Train
Guest
Train
3 years 2 months ago

HINDSIGHT IS 20-20

DodgersKingsoftheGalaxy
Guest
DodgersKingsoftheGalaxy
3 years 2 months ago

Assume nothing

Dreamin
Guest
Dreamin
3 years 2 months ago

The Truth Is Out There

Yuniesky Betancourt
Guest
Yuniesky Betancourt
3 years 2 months ago

JOB SECURITY!!!!! :) :)

Alex Gonzalez
Guest
Alex Gonzalez
3 years 2 months ago

I’ll be happy to share my OF glove with you Yuni.

Covane
Member
Covane
3 years 2 months ago

Braun had a better season in 2012 than his MVP 2011. He hit more home runs, he scored more runs despite no longer batting in front of Fielder, and in terms of the overall, his fWAR was higher. Unless he was arrogant enough to use steroids again in 2012, he either never did them to begin with, or they worked to no effect.

Braun took the suspension this year to get it out of the way, not because he was admitting anything. To that point, criticizing him for “lying” is silly. Baseball isn’t a moral crusade, a player may be seen more or less favorably depending on their willingness to acknowledge and change their faults, but there’s no moral obligation to do so- there’s no obligation to always tell the truth. There’s especially no obligation to curl up and accept punishment the moment PED allegations are levied. MLB was obligated to prove Braun used PEDs, and they failed.

Don’t treat Braun opprobriously for taking a stand and winning.

chuckb
Guest
chuckb
3 years 2 months ago

First of all, Braun didn’t “take a stand” as though he’s some crusader for the greater good. He utilized the process available to him to avoid punishment and he won. He’s no martyr. I don’t begrudge him for appealing and winning; that was his right (though his condemnation of the sample handler was pretty scummy.)

Second, you can’t say that the steroids didn’t help just bc he was also great in 2012. You’re confusing correlation and causation.

Covane
Member
Covane
3 years 2 months ago

He took a stand to preserve his reputation. Were MLB not to have McCarthy’d Anthony Bosch to get him to rat out the communists PED “users,” it would have remained.

The sample handler lied about the location of FedEx locations near the stadium. He furthermore exhibited astoundingly bad judgment in justifying taking the sample home, and then actually taking it home. Screwing up the test could compromise the career of pre-PED allegation Ryan Braun. He deserved to lose his job the moment he decided to do that.

As for mixing up correlation and causation, you should be careful using the lexicon of statistics on a sabermetrics site. We want to test whether or not a PED has an effect on a baseball player. If it consists of Test A and Test B, with A being the PED and B being without, and the player’s clean Test B outperforms the dirty Test A, then one is immediately left with the indication that the PED did nothing.

Bill.
Guest
Bill.
3 years 2 months ago

I certainly hope you do not have a job that requires critical thought.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

There’s so much wrong with this post I don’t even know where to start.

Anan
Guest
Anan
3 years 2 months ago

Well, he’s also assuming that Braun wasn’t using in 2012…which is a far from airtight claim.

Covane
Member
Covane
3 years 2 months ago

Oh, I agree, but I consider it unlikely enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. If he used in 2012 as well, I’d support punishing him on arrogance alone.

isavage30
Guest
isavage30
3 years 2 months ago

You also can’t say that you know he didn’t use in 2012 and is still using. With his guaranteed contract, it would be objectively unwise to continue using, but you never know what ego–the desire to be the best, as well as thinking you can keep one step ahead of the PED hounds on your tail–will do. Lance Armstrong was under a ton of suspicion and already had more money than he could ever need, and continued using because he still wanted to do anything he could to be the best. Manny Ramirez, busted once, kept using. Braun, nabbed in a drug test, still going to Biogenesis. The idea that a guy getting busted once for PEDs once means that guy will never use PEDs is pure silliness.

Covane
Member
Covane
3 years 2 months ago

I agree with you, I can’t say with certainty that he didn’t use in 2012. I only consider it reasonably likely, say 55/45, that he was clean. So if it’s reasonable to think he didn’t use in 2012, and he proceeded to be better in 2012 than 2011, then it can be suggested that he either did not use in 2011, or it worked to no effect.

I only consider these things likely, I’m not a dyed in the wool Braun supporter (not a Brewers fan, either,) but after seeing how he was better in the year following the PED allegations, and the vitriol against him, I thought I’d mention this.

Now if he did use both years, ban him for a year, ban him permanently, I don’t really care.

Dan
Guest
Dan
3 years 2 months ago

Braun wasn’t better in 2012. He was the same, unless you believe more HR=better season.

His WAR was .4 higher in 2012 because he had 50 more PAs and the UZR swung from negative to positive.

Covane
Member
Covane
3 years 2 months ago

The preeminent trait attributed to PED usage is more home runs. Given he hit 8 fewer home runs the year after his alleged PED use, then one wonders how effective those PEDs were, assuming he used them at all.

And had he only matched his 2011 fWAR, the question would still be there. If he’s worth the same clean as he is dirty, what good did the PEDs do?

Dan
Guest
Dan
3 years 2 months ago

He hit for basically the same amount of power both seasons. You can’t conclude that he didn’t use steroids one year because 8 doubles flew over the fence. That kind of random variation happens all the time.

JS7
Guest
JS7
3 years 2 months ago

This just makes me appreciate Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas & Jim Thome more. Knowing that these guys did amazing things and were most likely clean.

djw
Guest
djw
3 years 2 months ago

To state the obvious, you “know” nothing of the sort.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

The words, “most likely” seem to indicate that the poster already knew that, but whatevs.

Lenny Dykstra
Guest
Lenny Dykstra
3 years 2 months ago

Scum like this gives baseball a bad name.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

I see what you did there, Lenny.

Jon L.
Guest
Jon L.
3 years 2 months ago

But you’ve argued above that you *don’t* see what he did there. Because Lenny Dykstra’s skillset (and body, and mind) was changed by his steroid use, but you refuse to see that drugs can affect performance.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Did you read the link I provided? I can say time and time again that the use of PEDs is greatly exaggerated, primarily because they increase strength in the same manner as a thousand legal supplements. And why do people CONSTANTLY ignore the ball being changed to maximize offense? Does it not fit the narrative of STEROIDS STEROIDS STEROIDS?

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

Oh Lenny, you’re so silly.

Bleauj
Guest
Bleauj
3 years 2 months ago

Guys/Racists/Anti-Semites/Religious Moral Sychophants, Yahoo Sports is over there ->

Yeah
Guest
Yeah
3 years 2 months ago

Confirmation bias. That is all.

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

Since 2002, this is the most racist comment section i’ve ever encountered on Fangraphs. Go back to Yahoo Sports, Redneck America.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

So you are also Bleauj, yes?

TKDC
Guest
TKDC
3 years 2 months ago

I think this is just run of the mill trolling and I’m not ruling out that you are actually a true anti-semite trying to stir up trouble, but considering virtually everything you write is heavily downvoted, maybe, just maybe, you are the one that should GTFO???

FeslenR
Guest
FeslenR
3 years 2 months ago

In the words of Keanu Reeves: “Whoa”

that’s all I can say.

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

Honestly, how many people here legitimately hate Jews?

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

I hate Jewcers.

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

I hope you choke to death.

BenRevereDoesSteroids
Member
BenRevereDoesSteroids
3 years 2 months ago

Take notes, Fangraphs. Ryan Braun is now like Israel. If you criticize him at all, you are an Anti-Semite.

Jon L.
Guest
Jon L.
3 years 2 months ago

Is that really the “point” Holy Rednecks is making? I assumed he was just a troll spouting inanities.

Esoteric
Guest
Esoteric
3 years 2 months ago

Sadly, further posts have made it clear that yes, that WAS in fact that point that “Holy Rednecks” was making. Apparently if you think Ryan Braun is a sleazy liar who cheated and denied it right up until the point where he could no longer get away with it, you harbor a secret animosity toward the Jews.

Dear god.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

How many people here honestly hate bigots? I’m raising my hand.

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

If people legitimately “hate” Braun over this episode, then they need to re-examine the priorities in their life, and bring baseball down the list by several orders of magnitude.

Holy Rednecks
Guest
Holy Rednecks
3 years 2 months ago

Remember when Miguel Cabrera beat the shit out of his wife?

Onterrio Smith
Guest
Onterrio Smith
3 years 2 months ago

Wasn’t that Brett Myers?

Troy
Guest
Troy
3 years 2 months ago

and what exactly does that have to do with braun being a dirty cheater who uses PEDs?

Nik
Guest
Nik
3 years 2 months ago

Hilarious how the Braun apologists are still trying to lash out even after their guy pleads guilty to being a liar and a cheat.

^Definitely Not an Anti-Semite
Guest
^Definitely Not an Anti-Semite
3 years 2 months ago

Vee haf vays uf making joo toc, Meester Brownnnn.

DodgersKingsoftheGalaxy
Guest
DodgersKingsoftheGalaxy
3 years 2 months ago

Taking a plea doesn’t mean you’re guilty, even more assumptions.
It can simply be a way to lessen your sentence and accept the fact that they won’t stop until they get you.
The court of public opinion doesn’t make him guilty.
MLB has their own courtroom, i guess you can’t expect them to play fair.
In a proper one you can’t just assume someone is guilty.

Lance Armstrong
Guest
Lance Armstrong
3 years 2 months ago

Hey–that’s what I said when I got caught!

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

So you would literally have to watch him do the act himself to believe it I assume? Or would even that be subject to some caveat?

Nik
Guest
Nik
3 years 2 months ago

yeah: to the apologists no proof is ever enough.

Nik
Guest
Nik
3 years 2 months ago

Yeah just like he took a plea when busted with a positive test right? Maybe the difference is that this time his highly paid attorneys couldn’t find that magical technicality.

nod
Guest
nod
3 years 2 months ago

Taking a plea agreement doesn’t mean you are in reality guilty, but it does mean you admit guilt. So, Braun is saying he’s guilty.

Rule of Law
Guest
Rule of Law
3 years 2 months ago

Hilarious how people lap up the MLB show trials.

Nik
Guest
Nik
3 years 2 months ago

When was the trial? I must have missed it.

eayres33
Member
eayres33
3 years 2 months ago

Yeah in a trial we would have seen the evidence, which may or may not be damning. I love how ESPN has a poll up on if you think the suspension is long enough.
Well since I haven’t seen what MLB has on him, or who supplied that information how would I know, but lets rush to making judgements base off limited information.

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

We have no time to review evidence, consider motivations, and provide nuanced critique! WE HAVE MORAL INDIGNATION TO EXPRESS DAMMIT!!!1!11!!1

Cidron
Member
Cidron
3 years 2 months ago

Ya know what? All this slamming of Braun. But, I bet each and every one of you, if given the opportunity etc to gather a MLB team, from the talent already out there, None of you would decline adding Braun to your team. Yeah, there may be other OF that may be better, but if he was available, you would add him, and you know it.

He did own up to it (albeit, finally), and yes, when he was cornered. But, at least he didn’t ‘Palmiero’ it by denying it to the bitter end. As Andy Petitte proved many years ago, admit it, and the taint will eventually go away. Fight it, and its there forever. Given time, Braun will basically be back on the field, as Ryan Braun, professional hitter. Not Ryan Braun – Professinal PED user. Those who have fought it, lost more than just their career. They lost their image. (sosa, clemens, bonds, mcgwire, etc) Those who accepted the charges, admitted it, generally get a second chance to fix their image, and move on. (petitte, both giambi’s, and others)

Dan
Guest
Dan
3 years 2 months ago

Although I agree with you on Pettite, I don’t think Braun will be afforded the same treatment. Taking a dump on Dino Laurenzi Jr. is worse in my mind than the actual taking of PEDs.

Jon L.
Guest
Jon L.
3 years 2 months ago

Ryan Braun is a liar and a cheater. He obviously used PED’s, he admitted nothing when he got caught, and he told lies that hurt other people in order to falsely profess his innocence. He only “admitted” what he did as part of a “win/win” negotiation with MLB, in which MLB got to suspend the most popular and infamous current unpunished PED user, and Braun got off with just 65 games off the end of a non-playoff season.

Also: I like Ryan Braun. He’s a great player, and I think what he’s done on the field so far is amazing. I hope he’s able to perform at the same level next year. But liking him and his play doesn’t require us to be completely daft.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

Well, of course. The guy will have paid his penalty. He wasn’t banned for life. There’s no hypocrisy in that.

nod
Guest
nod
3 years 2 months ago

“Professional hitter” does not mean what you think it means
“Those who fought it” does not mean what you think it means.

Braun most certainly fought it, and he’s neither a PH or DH

Old School
Guest
Old School
3 years 2 months ago

I cannot believe that most of you are defending a dirty lying cheating MVP stealing snitch.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

He’s admitted his mistake and been suspended – what more do you want?

Dan
Guest
Dan
3 years 2 months ago

Apologize to the collector. Insinuating that Laurenzi maliciously tainted the urine sample was pretty low…

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Ty Cobb. Brett Myers. Pete Rose. Lenny Dykstra. Milton Bradley. Kirby Puckett (A fucking hall of famer who is seen as a saint despite being an abhorrent piece of shit). Dante Bichette. Brian Giles. Rogers Hornsby.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t see a lot of people defending those guys, except maybe Kirby Puckett. Sure they probably don’t get the condemnation they deserve but not too many people’s favorite players.

Nik
Guest
Nik
3 years 2 months ago

Also people don’t usually tend to demonize people that are already dead.

Jim
Guest
Jim
3 years 2 months ago

@nik: cf: Hitler.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

If you’re referring to Braun, I haven’t seen a single comment “defending” him.

Rippers
Guest
Rippers
3 years 2 months ago

Ryan Braun is an amazing player – with or without PEDs.

Nik
Guest
Nik
3 years 2 months ago

Probably more amazing with the PEDs though.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Prove it. Seriously, go ahead and do it.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

I submit to you this argument.

The person who knows and understands Ryan Braun’s body best is Ryan Braun, correct? Ryan Braun believed based on evidence only he could have access to that it helped him. Braun believed this so strongly, in fact that he was willing to risk millions of dollars on it.

Now, there is undeniable evidence that PEDs improve performance in at least some cases. Ryan Braun is the best person on the planet to judge whether his situation was one of those cases and he judged that it was.

Dan
Guest
Dan
3 years 2 months ago

You are probably correct. Unfortunately, we will never be sure one way or the other.

Troy
Guest
Troy
3 years 2 months ago

i guess we’ll see in 2014, won’t we?

isavage30
Guest
isavage30
3 years 2 months ago

Again, no. For all you know Ryan Braun is currently at home rolling around in a bathtub full of steroid cream that he’s been advised by shady doctors is, for certain, totally undetectable

Troy
Guest
Troy
3 years 2 months ago

i mean, he’d have to be REALLY insane to try to cheat again, no? considering the third offense is a lifetime ban and this is either offense one or two depending on your definition of his punishment. also, he’s got his big contract so whats the incentive now?

isavage30
Guest
isavage30
3 years 2 months ago

Maybe he really likes being one of the best players in baseball, and he doesn’t think he can be if he doesn’t use, and taking steroids makes his body feel good? The point is, how do you know? People do illogical things all of the time, and the threat of punishment usually doesn’t act as much of a deterrent, especially when you’re talking about something like drug use, where there’s the potential for addiction. What was Manny Ramirez’s motivation to keep using when he was already filthy rich, and had already been busted once? It’s no more crazy than continuing to smoke cigarettes when you know the negative consequences.

Jeff Blauser
Guest
Jeff Blauser
3 years 2 months ago

Some of these comments…yeesh.

Baltar
Guest
Baltar
3 years 2 months ago

Yeesh!

Nick
Member
Nick
3 years 2 months ago

I hate Ryan Braun because he’s Jewish, because that’s a reason that anybody tracking the situation dislikes the man.

James
Guest
James
3 years 2 months ago

Nobody should feel sorry for Braun.

For the Brewers, yes. But Braun threw people under the bus countless times and questioned the credibility of the entire league. He had this coming.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t hate Ryan Bruan because he cheated. That would be absurd. If I hated everyone who cheated in the MLB, hell, I’m not sure I would like anybody if that was the case. I hate him because he lied about it, and acted all smug after getting off on a technicality.

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

Again, if you legitimately hate Braun over this, I think it tells us more about you than it does about him. Can you be disappointed, a little mad, and/or totally disagree with the choices he made? Absoultely. Can you do that without hating him as an individual? Absolutely.

Cidron
Member
Cidron
3 years 2 months ago

All of you who are screaming “Ban him for life” or “He is a cheat, get him out of the game”… I assume that you never have cheated, broken the law, or anything shady? Not necessarily the same as getting caught at it, but, did you do it. Think about it. He broke the law, got caught, and now gets to do his time for it. Get off his case. You are no more or less ‘human’ than he is. Five years from now, he will likely be jus good ole Ryan Braun, outfielder.

binqasim
Member
binqasim
3 years 2 months ago

we have but we don’t claim to be clean on national media.

Blurs
Guest
Blurs
3 years 2 months ago

Braun lied a lot. That’s what he’s admitting. While that’s unsurprising to me at this point, it’s still disappointing. I wish he’d have just admitted it in the first place. He’s not a killer or a drunk driver, but those are hardly compliments. That’s what you’re SUPPOSED to do, to quote Chris Rock. I’m not sure how I feel about him. Probably going to be a while before I am. I don’t like being lied to.

Selig and the MLB has dirty hands. No, that’s an understatement, they have rolled around in the muck and sung limericks filled with joy while they did so. I have very little respect for the leagues, the Commissioner’s office, or the Hypocrite In Chief himself.

And the union is fucking pointless. They sold out their own guys. I get that the majority of the rank and file wanted these guys suspended, and I get why. I’d probably feel the same way. But the fact that the union came out and agreed with the nonsensical position taken by MLB that the 50/100/lifetime scheme didn’t apply to non-analytical violations is fucking insane. The obvious, responsible route for the union would have been to please its majority by encouraging the people facing overwhelming evidence not to appeal, and then to publicly and loudly and litigiously call MLB on its bullshit that the CBA’s suspension schedule went out the window when the evidence of a violation gets more subjective and less credible. What the hell is the point of belonging to a union that makes the employer’s bullshit argument for them?

In sum: Fuck Bud Selig. Fuck the Union. And fuck lying to me.

Maybe I’ll get over the latter. Time will tell.

Slats
Guest
Slats
3 years 2 months ago

Don’t forget to apologize to the specimen handler who’s life you trashed last year, Brauny.

eayres33
Member
eayres33
3 years 2 months ago

You mean the guy the mishandled the sample? I don’t get the love for that guy, you mess up that badley you get called out and you get fired.

Eddie
Guest
Eddie
3 years 2 months ago

It’s a shame he’ll only miss 65 games worth of checks on his current salary. Justice would be losing 65 games worth of the average value of the life of his contract.

Nick
Guest
Nick
3 years 2 months ago

Kemp is on steroids too you idiots.

TheGrandslamwich
Member
TheGrandslamwich
3 years 2 months ago

Stick to Bleacher Report.

James
Guest
James
3 years 2 months ago

Dude Bleacher Report had a 143 page slide show outlining how Kemp was on steroids!

3rd Times the Charm
Guest
3rd Times the Charm
3 years 2 months ago

So if and when he gets another suspension, is it 100 games or life?

nod
Guest
nod
3 years 2 months ago

My bet is Selig told him “we getcha again, it’s for good.”

R Kelly
Guest
R Kelly
3 years 2 months ago

We obviously need better pee-handling protocols

SF 55 for life
Member
SF 55 for life
3 years 2 months ago

and this is hilarious

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

That’s enough R Kelly, hit the golden showers!

Rational Baseball Fan
Guest
Rational Baseball Fan
3 years 2 months ago

I thought FanGraphs readers were less puritanical than this. There seem to be so many people, for example, calling into question the ‘legitimacy’ of his MVP award. I find it hard to give any weight to an argument like that, as we have absolutely NO way of knowing how PED’s impacted his play. And people who think this way fail to mention that in his followup 2012 campaign (in which he would have been tested SCRUTINOUSLY), he had essentially the same season.

I have to be honest, I don’t think he’s an immoral bastard. Many are particularly vilifying him for ‘lying to us’ after he avoided suspension when he maintained innocence emphatically. But what was he expected to do? Are we really judging someone so harshly for ‘lying’? I don’t take issue with him lying when he was avoiding suspension for something that isn’t inherently ‘evil’ in the first place. The impact of the lie should be informed by the severity and nature of what it’s about, no? It’s one thing to get away with murder, but would not everyone here tell a lie to avoid a speeding ticket if it was possible??

I don’t feel betrayed; I’m not a child who looks up to him and hopes he can be some kind of paragon of the game. He’s a fantastic player with or without PED’s and I see no reason to dislike him for any of this.

Maybe I’m just a lot more progressive on this issue than most baseball fans though?

SF 55 for life
Member
SF 55 for life
3 years 2 months ago

I agree with your first paragraph. We have no way of knowing how much he gained from using PEDs. Chances are Braun will go back to being Ryan Braun after his suspension is over.

The problem I have with Braun is the way he vehemently went after the credibility of the test handler. Now that he was caught with Biogenesis the comments he made in the past were unnecessary and way out of line anyway you look at it.

I don’t like or dislike him any more or less for the PEDs on their own. The way he attacked another man’s reputation is what I have an issue with.

Pennant
Guest
Pennant
3 years 2 months ago

No you’re not more progressive, you’re soft on cheating. I wonder if your boss, co-workers, children, and buddies know that you think it is okay to tell a bald-faced lie if you think the circumstances are ok. Of course if they do it to you, to cheat you out of success at work, then you go postal, rhetorically speaking of course.

what a hoot. Check out tweets from real MLB players. Seems like there is little or no support for Braun. Rank and file guys are SICK of this crap.

nod
Guest
nod
3 years 2 months ago

How do you lie about speeding?

isavage30
Guest
isavage30
3 years 2 months ago

And I would think people on fangraphs, who are supposed to be basing their comments on things like science and logic, would quit using the argument that “he couldn’t possibly have been using PEDs in 2012”. That’s wild conjecture. I’m pretty sure A-Rod was tested SCRUTINOUSLY too, since he’d previously admitted to using. Yet he was still using, and he was not popped. But PED testing is foolproof and no one already under scrutiny would keep using, and if they did they’d get caught, right? Right?

The idea that steroids don’t help is also absurd. If you are stronger, and your stamina is greater, your athletic performance will improve. How is that even remotely arguable? I can understand why saber writers don’t like the idea of PEDs having any effect, because it’s something that’s inherently impossible to measure. There’s no formula that can predict which player is going to start using what drug, and how that will affect the player’s performance. But that doesn’t excuse willful blindness. The same people who gush about Bonds’ absurd numbers in his late 30s, deny that using a drug that increases your strength and stamina improves your bat speed and power.

Rational Baseball Fan
Guest
Rational Baseball Fan
3 years 2 months ago

And it ISN’T ‘wild conjecture’ to imply that he was absolutely on PED’s in 2012?? Why are you automatically assuming he was juicing during 2012? This suspension could just as easily be stemming only from his 2011 offense, and after being acquitted, he ceased to use. That’s one possibility, and him using PED’s throughout his 2012 campaign is another. But don’t claim to know any more than the rest of us as to which story is true. I feel that your points would carry more weight if you didn’t do exactly what you accused me of doing ;)

And I very much doubt A-Rod, who is approaching grandfather age and putting up thoroughly underwhelming numbers relative to his heyday, is being tested with NEARLY the same fervor as Braun was throughout 2012.

Christ, quit having such a stick up your ass about PED use.

And to Pennant:

YES, I absolutely, categorically feel that it is okay to lie if the circumstances warrant it. How can you POSSIBLY say otherwise?

Dave S (the original)
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Dave S (the original)
3 years 2 months ago

But sports… baseball… is supposed to be a bastion of fair play. An ESCAPE from the drudgery of daily life and toil… where people lie steal cheat and deceit to get by.

Don’t we want baseball to be a respite from the evilness of daily life?

A prescribed field to play upon. Rules to be followed. Fair. Even. Where all have an equal chance.

Is that NOT what you want?

Yes, it is naive in a way.

But is it bad to want baseball to be that? To be that thing that is good, and virtuous… or at least TRIES to be?

isavage30
Guest
isavage30
3 years 2 months ago

No, it’s not wild conjecture, maybe you should re-read what I wrote? Most of the players caught up with Biogenesis were tested for PEDs and weren’t popped. Braun, Melky, Bartolo were popped, but A-Rod, Peralta, others have never tested positive, and there’s pretty good evidence that they were in fact using. Hell, Lance Armstrong was tested with much “fervor” for a decade, and they never got him through testing. I’m saying I don’t know, you don’t know, and it’s nonsense to make a claim that he did not use PEDs in 2012 because he didn’t get busted, which IS what you said. Now, you’ve changed your argument. And now you’re claiming to know that Braun was tested with more fervor than A-Rod. How can you possibly know that’s true? They are both players who either are known past users or under current suspicion, and likely would’ve been under similar increased scrutiny.

Jason B
Guest
Jason B
3 years 2 months ago

My two cents:

(1) We have no idea when he used, when he didn’t, how much and how often, etc. Nor will we likely ever know. Speculation that he definitively used in this season or that is pretty baseless on both sides.

(2) People lie all the time about matters big and small. It’s not always OK because it’s so commonplace, nor is it always the absolute worst thing ever, on par with truly heinous acts like murder and rape.

We go along with a boss’s opinion when we really don’t agree because it’s not worth an argument, or say “Gee that dress looks great!” or “Dinner was delicious honey!” when we don’t really mean it. You show me someone who is brutally honest all of the time, I’ll show you a d!ckhead who is all alone in life.

TKDC
Guest
TKDC
3 years 2 months ago

I’m going to stick to “Matt Kemp should have won because he was better that year.”

SF 55 for life
Member
SF 55 for life
3 years 2 months ago

Its amazing how differently we view baseball players to athletes from other major sports.

You look at the NFL and they have murderers, rapists, drug addicts, and juicers that get caught basically every other week. For the most part (especially the players caught with drugs and PEDs) these occurrences end up being little more than a few lines words on the bottom line on EPSN. Those players serve their suspensions/punishments and at the end of the day they end up being little more than a paragraph on their wikipedia page.

When a baseball player gets caught using PEDs it ends up being a media field day with reporters everywhere exclaiming that PED use in baseball (specifically baseball) is a huge problem. Do other people here believe that? With the way the NFL (PEDs, crime, spygate, etc) and NBA are run (Tim Donaghy, essentially no PED testing policy, etc) is baseball deserving of such negative press? Doesn’t make sense to me. I think its about time MLB hires some more effective PR people.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

Probably because so many people were obsessed with this idea of steroids having this massive effect in baseball, which is insanely overblown without a ton of factual evidence. Hell, Todd Bertuzzi nearly crippled a guy in hockey and gets less flack and less of a suspension than Ryan Braun did for this. Carlos Quentin broke Zack Greinke’s collarbone. Brett Myers decked his wife in the middle of the street and made a start the next day. Babe Ruth injected sheep testicles into his blood stream for a performance boost. Willie Mays took amphetamines.

I honestly thought a site like Fangraphs, which is tied to a writer like Keith Law who actually realizes how overblown the effects of steroids are, would see things more clearly. But this reads half like an ESPN message board, it’s sad. I’ve said some angry things because I HATE how ridiculous and overblown this whole thing is, but that beats the most generic crap being spouted at every turn.

SF 55 for life
Member
SF 55 for life
3 years 2 months ago

great reply, great username.

Pennant
Guest
Pennant
3 years 2 months ago

If steroids have no effect, why did the MLBPA agree to the testing program and the punishment. I mean wouldn’t it be dopey for the MLBPA to agree to long suspensions for the equivalent of drinking to much caffeine?

PEDs, like everything else, some are helped more than others.

Stringer Bell
Guest
Stringer Bell
3 years 2 months ago

because they’re disillusioned?

Pennant
Guest
Pennant
3 years 2 months ago

Check out Tweets from MLB players: I saw no sympathy for your cheater Braun. Rank and file union guys sick of prima donna cheaters who double down. Braun is cheating them at their chance of success, or haven’t you realized that?

And then on Fangraphs, Braun still has his groupies and sycophants. You all would do better following that guy who predicted the end of the world last December.

yeah
Guest
yeah
3 years 2 months ago

Could you point me towards some of them? I’m legitimately curious about what players are saying. The amount things like twitter feeds are managed by PR people these days I’m surprised they’d offer a strong opinion.

Milosz
Guest
Milosz
3 years 2 months ago

“This is the state of our current society. Those who cheat to get paid get off.”

ITYM “this is the state of capitalist society, as it has always been.” Basic cost-benefit analysis.

Using PEDs keeps you in the league longer or, theoretically, boosts your performance to the tune of several million dollars per year. If you get caught, all you lose out on is what you wouldn’t have had anyway.

Jeff Blauser
Guest
Jeff Blauser
3 years 2 months ago

I see your point, but from Braun’s perspective, if there is so little to be gained from PED use, why taint your name and risk getting suspended? Are you implying prescribing doctors are lying to these players, saying the effects will be greater than they really are? I just find it difficult to believe that a player would risk so much for effects you call “overblown.”

Regardless, I don’t pass judgment on the decision to take PEDs. It’s got to be tempting. But it’s still a rule and the MLB has to enforce it. It’s the fair thing to do, especially for players who choose to follow the rules. Furthermore, what the NFL does to police its league has nothing to do with the MLB. And the problems with the NFL often rest with police authorities, and the challenges in convicting are far greater than a commissioner handing out a suspension. The fact that OJ got away with murder has no reflection on the NFL, much less the MLB.

Brian
Guest
Brian
3 years 2 months ago

I agree with a lot of this. It is kind of ridiculous that baseball is the only sport that causes so much outrage when a steroid user is exposed. 2 things that I think keeps the PED outrage in football to a minimum:

1) The NFL doesn’t test for HGH. So when someone tests positive, its usually for something that people don’t generally associate with PEDs, like the Seahawk Special(TM), Adderall.

(As an aside, do you really think Adrian Peterson could have come back that quickly from such a gruesome knee injury WITHOUT HGH?)

2) The NFL suspends you 4 games no matter what you took, and they don’t publicly say which test was failed/what the substance was that triggered the positive test. So there’s really no way of knowing what a guy really took, and of course they all say it was some BS drug that, like I said before, isn’t usually associated with PEDs.

Bill
Guest
Bill
3 years 2 months ago

I seem to recall a lot of outrage when Armstrong was outed, but I think you’re right about the NFL. People want to give their players the benefit of the doubt. If Braun had tested positive, but the league was not permitted to release what it was, he would probably lie and tell everyone it was Adderall or something like this. Fans would then just let themselves believe that their player was just the victim of an overly inclusive drug ban.

Jay29
Member
Jay29
3 years 2 months ago

Also, we haven’t seen many marketable NFL stars get busted for PED use. PEDs in baseball are (whether correctly or not) linked with HR power, and HRs sell tickets — so Bonds, McGwire, A-Rod, and Braun all were superstars caught using PEDs.

In football, we haven’t seen the superstars get busted for PEDs. What do you think would happen if Brady or Peyton were caught? I’m sure there would be a big media reaction.

(Plus, I think we all implicitly accept that the nature of football as an extremely physically taxing sport leads to players seeking assistance from PEDs. So we’re not as shocked when players get busted.)

Shame
Guest
Shame
3 years 2 months ago

This is the state of our current society. Those who cheat to get paid get off. What are we teaching our kids with this? Or what are they going to learn from our lack of teaching? Take the short cut. Braun’s contract should be voided, and released. Brewers should have first chance to resign him if they want him, otherwise let him go the way of Melky. Who’s having a fabulous year by the way. When is a team going to take action to void contracts? Surely A-roid should have this happen. Do we know how long Braun has been using? He may not even be the quality of player we thought…

eayres33
Member
eayres33
3 years 2 months ago

There is no action for them to take, they have a CBA with the union that doesn’t allow them to void contracts for this.

To the second part we don’t know how long’s Braun’s been using and for that matter we don’t know how the use of banned substances has effected him, it may have made him better, for all we know it may have made him worse. We don’t even know what drugs or supplements he was using for this offense.

Vernon Wells
Guest
Vernon Wells
3 years 2 months ago

Maybe it’s just society.

Dylan
Guest
Dylan
3 years 2 months ago

“Their 2013 season is obviously finished, and the marginal value of Braun’s contributions this year weren’t really going to matter to the organization. Without him in the line-up, they might even end up with a better draft pick than they would have otherwise in a year where the amateur talent is supposed to be pretty good.”

This is an interesting couple of sentences on a site that has, in the past, had pretty impassioned articles supporting great player on bad teams for MVP (Jose Bautista in 2011 comes to mind; I remember at one point around the ASB a ton of people on this site were supporting him).

Jordan
Guest
Jordan
3 years 2 months ago

The players linked to biogenesis were in a real life prisoner’s dilemma, and Braun just sold everyone else out. If none of these players took the deal MLB was offering, then in each case, it would have been some sketchy records plus Bosch’s word (which can be attacked because he’s testifying to avoid prison time) versus the player’s word. Far from a sure thing, in other words. If each player had remained silent, all of them would likely have been better off. Braun might well have gotten less than 65 games, or even avoided suspension altogether. But now that he’s accepted MLB’s deal, Braun has given Bosch credibility, which should mean harsher penalties for the rest of the players linked to biogenesis.

Engine
Guest
Engine
3 years 2 months ago

I don’t understand how Braun gets off on a plea deal here. Charge him and suspend him like they’ve done with the other players. So he can’t play for 2 months of the season, really laying the law down Bud. Is it impossible for Selig to have different rules for the Brewers?

Jordan
Guest
Jordan
3 years 2 months ago

Braun likely got a ‘discount’ for being the first player linked to biogenesis to accept MLB’s offer. By doing so, he’s made MLB’s case against the rest of the players much stronger.

Dylan
Guest
Dylan
3 years 2 months ago

He simultaneously strengthens their case against the other players and gives them at least one win when they otherwise may have struck out completely. Those suspensions will be appealed, and they’re far from a lock to stick.

sopcod
Member
sopcod
3 years 2 months ago

I didn’t read all the comments but I’ve heard also that MLB wants to avoid lengthy court proceedings with these guys. They would rather have them all confess, which giving them somewhat lighter punishment facilitates, and get all this in the rear view mirror. I’d like to see their asses nailed to the wall as much as the next guy but at the end of the day MLB is still a business.

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