SI’s Underrated List of Underrated Position Players
Earlier this week, Sports Illustrated posted the results (in slide-show form, yay!) of recent survey they took asking 228 MLB players to name the most underrated position player in the game. These sorts of things usually generate “interesting” results, and this case was no exception. This is supposed to be a fun exercise, so it would be unfair to complain about the “unscientific” nature of the poll: why 228 players? How were they distributed across the teams? Were they position players themselves or a mix? How many votes did each player get? The notions of “underrated” and is itself vague (underrated by the media? The fans? Statistics?), so the respondents may have been thinking of different things when answering. Wouldn’t a truly underrated player fail to show up on a list of “top underrated players” at all?
Such complaints sort of miss the point. I assume this was simply meant to be a fun way to generate discussion. I personally would have liked to have seen one or two comments from respondents about each player to get a sense of what the respondents were thinking about when they answered. In any case, the list has some results that are pretty hilarious, as one might expect. One way of responding would be to come up with a different list. Grant Brisbee wrote up an excellent list of his own. Another would be to simply go through SI’s list and comment on it.
This post takes the second path, but the truth is, it is not quite the “fisking” one might expect. Yes, some choices are downright hilarious. However, given the qualifications above, I thought the responding players did okay. It is not the list I would have made, but they made some decent choices. Or maybe the list is like the movie Juno: the beginning is so horribly annoying that the rest seems better than it actually is.
1. Michael Young. Okay, so the players did not get off to a strong start. Michael Young has been arguably the most overrated player in baseball for a number of years. An “underrated” player is not the subject of a loving montage during the playoffs that makes him sound like a victim who “never complained” (even though he complained a fair bit). I can’t come up with an original Michael Young joke today, make your own. The main point for this post is to not let this ridiculous choice (we really need to see player comments here) ruin the rest of the list.
2. Howie Kendrick. I am not sure if Howie Kendrick is actually underrated or not. He certainly is not overrated. He rarely gets much press despite playing for a successful, L.A. team. He is actually hitting horribly this year, but maybe the players should get some credit for looking beyond just this season.
3. Paul Konerko. Overall, Konerko is just a good player. He can hit, but his poor fielding and baserunning really cut into his value. But most players who have hit like Konerko has since 2010 and have similar faults would be lauded as among the best in the game. Konerko has a better wRC+ over the last three seasons than Prince Fielder, and his wRC+ is just one point behind David Ortiz‘s. Konerko is vastly underrated if you compare the attention he gets relative to players similar to him.
4. Shin-Soo Choo. The players nailed it. Grant covers this one better than I can. I’m not sure I’m quite as high on Choo as Grant is, but yeah, Choo should get more love.
5. Gerardo Parra. From the X-Files… Obviously Parra is not overrated, since you rarely hear about him, so maybe he should be mentioned a bit more often. Maybe that is what the players are thinking about when they voted for him. That and his glove fielding. Not terrible, just puzzling.
6. Nick Markakis. Another enigmatic choice. Markakis does not get that much press, but he is not that great, either. Markakis is having a nice bounce-back with the bat this year, but that says as much about how disappointing he has been the last couple of seasons than about how good he is now. I am not sure he is underrated, though.
7. Ben Zobrist. Zobrist is not the superstar he may have looked like in 2009, but he is still underrated. Almost any second baseman is going to be underrated (see they lack of attention Chase Utley received during his prime as one of the best players in baseball). Players like Zobrist, who do not hit for a high average, smack monster home runs, or steal tons of bases (although he gets his share) are going to get passed over. But he is rarely mentioned as one of the key parts of the Rays contenders the last few seasons, and he has been essential.
8. Alex Gordon. Despite being one of the most valuable players in the American League in 2011, Alex Gordon could not even get one of his hometown writers to place him higher on the 2011 AL MVP ballot than… wait for it… Michael Young. Gordon easily out hit Young straight up (141 wRC+ to 127 wRC+) and played very good defense in left field while Young, uh did not. Gordon started slow this year, and while his 2012 “Brett Gardner without steals but with an arm” impersonation this year is somewhat strange, he has been a very valuable player. Nice job by the players, again, to look beyond simply the present season.
9. Ian Kinsler. Good choice. The only potential problems here: a) Can any Ranger still qualify as underrated? b) So many people (myself included) have written about him being underrated that he may not not qualify any more.
10. Miguel Montero. Maybe it is because he hits in Arizona, or that he hits so well that people do not realize that he is quite good defensively, but Montero does not get enough credit in my book, either.
11. Martin Prado. This surprised me at first, but that was because I myself underrated Prado. Prado is pulling a bit of a “reverse Kendrick.” By that I mean that Prado is probably underrated because of his terrible year at the plate in 2011, but he is killing the ball again this season. Like Gordon, spending most of his time in left field probably hurts Prado a bit, too, since the tendency is to think that a left fielder has to hit 25 home runs or more to be valuable.
12. Cliff Pennington. Another strange “at least he is not actually overrated” choice. The players must see something we don’t (or they asked a bunch of current and former Athletics who are Pennington’s buddies). Maybe they love his fielding or hustle or something. He was great in 2010, but has been mostly bad since then.
13. Jamey Carroll. Not a terrible choice. “Underrated” does not necessarily have to mean “hidden superstar.” Carroll’s bat is sort of falling apart this year, but he provided good, steady value for the Dodgers for a few seasons.
14. Robinson Cano. Hilarious. Look, Cano a wonderful player having an awesome year. Maybe the idea is that “sure, he gets tons of attention, but he deserves even more!” Yeah… I just do not see how he is really fits on this sort of list. Would you put Josh Hamilton on this list?
15. Asdrubal Cabrera. I should go easy on these last few spots. Who knows how many votes these players actually got? You know the score on Cabrera — he is not making anyone forget Ozzie Smith in the field, but he hits well for a shortstop. I can see him as underrated.
Not bad. Again, it is not the list I would make, and #1 is maybe the funniest thing you’ll see this summer. But Young (and perhaps Cano, although for very different reasons) is really the only howler here. Some of the other choices are a bit strange, but who knows what the players were thinking of when asked this question? Numbers 3,4, and 7-11, in particular, are really good choices in my opinion. It could have been much worse.
An additional note on Prado. I agree his value is hurt by spending most of his time in left field, but it’s helped a lot by his versatility. He’s a good third baseman, a passable (probably somewhat below average) second baseman, and can even kind of hold down in short in an emergency (as he was asked to last week). Even though his potential isn’t always used to the fullest, just having a guy who can play all over and hit enough to play anywhere really helps a team’s roster flexibility.
Passable 2b?? It’s his favorite position. And the one he plays best.
I think Cano might be underrated by FanGraphs folks because he’s been so overrated by mainstream fans in the past. Or maybe he’s just fairly rated all around.
On another note, would love to see someone try to statistically measure the most underrated players. Don’t ask me how, but I think it could be done.
I think there was a Fangraphs post last year that took traditional numbers, compared them to sabermetric numbers, and determined which players had the biggest difference in value when looked at each way. Sort of the same thing, I think.
OK, here:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/whos-the-most-underrated-player-in-baseball/
That’s definitely good, but it’s basically just gonna end up being the players that walk a lot and play good defense at a scarce position (i.e. Ben Zobrist). That’s great and all, and those players are in fact underrated, but I feel like there are a lot different types of underrated players, like guys that are putting up huge seasons without getting much attention (like Josh Willingham maybe?). If there was some way to measure how much the players are getting talked about, that would be a start. Maybe just a random street polling haha.
somebody here made a “fantasy WAR” stat a while back that measured a version of WAR based solely on fantasy 5×5 stats and lined that up against actual WAR to determine what players get overrated the most by traditional stats. I don’t recall the results but I think it was late last summer and was a decent way of identifying guys who are great at actual baseball but don’t get credit because they don’t post elite average/HR/SB numbers.
and somebody else thought of the same thing as me and wasn’t too lazy to find the post before i even posted. +1 to the above
Compare WAR value of a player for the past 5 years to the number of News articles on google?? LOL
I can see it. Look, while he is a stud 2b, … he is a 2b! and you did mention that unless you are Utley and a 2b, you probably are underrated.. Also, he is in NY yes, but, its Arod, Jeter, Tex, Girardi, the Steinbrenners, GM, CC, all casting their shadows of rep, etc about the place.. He can slip into the shadows and not be noticed pretty easily.
Cano is totally underrated
well, to the fangraphs crowd, i agree that he is underrated, your unfunny joke notwithstanding.
he was recently rated to have virtually the same trade value as alcides escobar. so if cashman put cano on the trade block and dayton moore put escobar on the trade block, theyd expect to receive similar packages right? laughable….
the dudes arguably the best player in the AL right now (non trout division)… hes a star that plays for the yankees sure, but he doesnt get mentioned among the best players in the game, which he certainly is. qualifies as underrated to me.
“The short term team control and high expected cost to re-sign him drive down his trade value to some degree”
This quotation is from the entry on Cano in the trade value thread. I don’t think you are interpreting that exercise correctly. Trade value was estimated based not just on performance but on cost, age and other factors which might discourage some clubs from bidding. If you read the two descriptions-of Cano and Escobar-you can see that the author in no way considers them similarly valuable players.
I suppose you could interpret the ranking that both would receive similar packages back in a trade, but I think the meaning is more subtle than that, and certainly does not mean they are similar talents.
bob -
the sereis is called “trade value”, and theyre ranked 1 apart from each other. saying fangraphs grades their trade value similar/equal is the only way to interpret it. not sure how you could argue otherwise.
im well aware cano has short team control and a high expected cost to re-sign, and his trade value is still way higher than escobar. if both GMs put those players on the market, you dont think cashman would get a SIGNIFICANT better package of prospects in return? you cant be serious. 1.5 years of cano and a chance to sign him to a (expensive) long term deal is a lot more valuable on the market than several years of a cheap escobar.
if cano’s trade value (again, thats the name of the series) is 1 spot from alcides escobar, then yes, he is very underrated by fangraphs.
“The only guy signed through 2013 to make the list was Robinson Cano. In general, teams just aren’t willing to pay huge premiums for 1 1/2 years of service, even for great players.”
This is from Dave Cameron on the thread of #30-26. You may be right about the evaluation of trade value being flawed in this case, but that means you disagree with this view about what teams will pay for.
Emphatically, it does not mean that anyone is saying Escobar is worth about the same as Cano in real terms-just that 1.5 years of Cano would likely not bring the trade premium he may seem to require while a, by reputation, good defensive shortstop under long term control-one who is hitting pretty well this year-might garner a similar return.
“but he doesnt get mentioned among the best players in the game, ”
lol, whut?
He’s won the SS the last 2 years, the GG at his position 2 years ago (despite not being a very good defender), he’s been in the top 3 and top 6 MVP votes the last 2 years. He’s been an allstar the last 2 years (and this year).
Everyone realises Cano is one of the best players in the game.
RC -
yes, ESPN and the media respect Cano and view him as one of the best in the game. nobody disputed that and its unclear as to why it was brought up.
the discussion is about fangraphs. cano isn’t a wizard defensively and hasn’t been known throughout his career for drawing a lot of walks. knowing that, he’s by default underrated by fangraphs, as any regular reader would tell you. the trade value series just confirms it.
bob – i know cano only has 1.5 years of control left. i guess i just disagree with the premise that 1.5 years of cano isnt better than 5 years of alcides escobar
I’d agree, Mrs. Cano, at least on this site.
God’s honest truth, people here un-ironically argue that Pedroia is as good as, if not better than, Cano offensively.
Can you make a case he wasn’t at least as good? Prior to this year of course since no one at fangraphs is saying that Pedroia has been better this year?
I think it had a bit more to do with the fact that Pedroia is very, very close to Cano as a hitter, but can actually field too.
Cano: 29.2 WAR, 4799 PA (regular since 2005)
Pedroia: 27.1 WAR, 3539 PA (call up in 2006, regular since 2007)
@Los and williams .482
Have you seen Pedey’s Home/Road splits? They’re comical. His Home wRC+ is 132 vs 106 Away
to quote Stats from the earlier trade value thread:
The last five years, Fenway Park has ranked second, second, first, first, and first in friendliness to doubles, so you could easily say that it is well established as the most doubles friendly park in all of baseball. Here are some career splits for Pedroia:
Home: 19.8 LD%, 41.7 GB%, 38.6 FB%, 8.0 HR/FB%
Away: 20.3 LD%, 44.2 GB%, 35.5 FB%, 7.7 HR/FB%
Home: 9.2 BB%, 8.4 K%
Away: 9.6 BB%, 8.4 K%
There is really no difference in his approach or contact rates in either situation. Now, for some results (1599 PA at home, 1602 PA on the road, so fully comparable)
Singles: 284 at home vs. 289 on the road.
Doubles: 130 at home vs. 76 on the road.
Triples: 4 at home vs. 4 on the road
Home Runs: 40 at home vs. 35 on the road.
/end quote
for the record, here are Robbie’s splits:
Home: 19.9 LD%, 47.5 GB%, 32.6 FB%, 14.6 HR/FB%
Away: 20.5 LD%, 49.0 GB%, 30.5 FB%, 12.1 HR/FB%
Home: 5.3 BB%, 11.3 K%
Away: 5.4 BB%, 12.1 K%
Singles: 421 at home vs. 448 on the road.
Doubles: 136 at home vs. 177 on the road.
Triples: 13 at home vs. 15 on the road
Home Runs: 91 at home vs. 74 on the road.
So, in conclusion, some of Cano’s doubles on the road turn into home runs at Yankee Stadium, while Pedroia’s outs on the road turn into doubles at Fenway.
Of course, I could have just said that Pedroia is a prototypical product of his home park who wouldn’t be nearly as productive if he played in a stadium where fly balls to left field weren’t doubles, but that would not have been nearly as much fun.
wRC+ is already park so it takes into account the Fenway doubles…
So how do you account for the 26 point difference in wRC+…
Maybe his grit levels just explode off the charts in Fenway, and that’s why he replaces flyouts with doubles when he’s at home!
…or the park factors used in wRC+, which were designed to use on a large scale, might not accurately portray the effect of a particular park on a particular player.
(Or is saying that heresy here?)
Slideshow form immediately makes something 100x better, didn’t ya know?
So, who’s the most underrated player in the league in your opinion then? How about Robbie Ross?
Andrew McCutchen is THE Most Underrated Player in Baseball.
“where” does not equal “were”. Twice in the first paragraph. Yeesh.
Is Paul Konerko really underrated if EVERYONE keeps saying he’s underrated? It’s like a double-negative.
Hold on now. The film Juno might have some preposterous verbal tics, but it is basically a good show, and a wonderful comedy. Moreover it deserves credit for the second-best use of Michael Cera all-time.*
-
*(I have Pop-Pop in the attic.)
the mere fact that you call making love pop-pop tells me that you’re not ready for it.
Hot potatooooo!
Her?
She calls it a “mayonegg”! …Are you okay?
I skipped the rest of the article to make a similar comment about Juno. It is a fantastic comedy.
“so i’m Mr. Manager now?”
“no, just manager”
“but you said Mr…”
I watched a similar show from MLB.tv that rated the most underrated players according to player votes, and in this show they displayed brief videos of players justyfying their choices accompanied by a video of the player doing something sweet.
Unfortunately Young was also high on this list.
Parra, Konerko, and Kendrick also rated highly. there must be something about those 3 guys and Young that illicits sympathy from fellow players?
I think the players seem to value clubhouse chemistry and work ethic much more than the fans and analysts. Always seems to be the thing the players are looking at when they talk about underrated. Young, Konerko and Kendrick all fit into that description.
What’s the X-Files joke with Parra?
Without any research, I’d name Ben Zobrist as the most underrated player. He was a top 10 position player in the AL in two of the last three completed seasons in my opinion but had very little MVP buzz or other publicity. He’s also not paid a lot and plays on a team that isn’t featured on national t.v. all that much.
That would be my vote too.
McCutchen is more underrated!
How is McCutchen underrated? Last year was his first year as a star, and he made the All-Star game. This year is his first year as a truly elite player, and everyone and their mother has him pegged as the leading NL MVP candidate. I guess people aren’t going gaga for him like they are for Trout, but he’s not as good or as young as Trout (and therefore not as unique). Maybe he’s still slightly underrated, but if so it’s only because he hasn’t been in the handful of game’s best players for more than half a season. You have to give it time.
Zobrist, on the other hand, led the AL position players in WAR (by a solid amount) and came in 8th in MVP balloting. What’s more, nobody even raised a fuss! The Mauer narrative had taken over. It was especially weird b/c you’d think the breakout star for the breakout team that came out of nowhere to win the AL East would be the ideal candidate. In 2011 he was 8th in WAR and came in 16th in MVP balloting.
Since 2009, he is fifth among position players in WAR behind only Pujols, Votto, Cabrera, and Braun. He’s ahead of superstars including Cano, Tulowitzki, and, wait for it….Andrew McCutchen. I defy you to find me one list published in the MSM in the last three years that has listed Ben Zobrist as one of the 10 best players int he game.
It’s no contest really. He’s easily the most underrated player in baseball.
The Angels are not an LA team, despite the hilariously stupid name change. Anaheim isn’t even in Los Angeles COUNTY, for god’s sake
Even though I agree that the name is stupid, I think calling the Angles an LA team is just fine for me. According to the Combined Statistical Area, Anaheim is part of “Greater Los Angeles Area”. So, the census says they’re close enough to be considered one entity. It’s like 30 miles, and like 10 miles to the COUNTY border, that’s hardly enough for mockery.
The Dallas Cowboys play 20 miles from Dallas and nobody cares.
easy there. I’ll see that and raise you the NY Jets and NY Giants, who as you know don’t even play in NY state.
Anyone who has driven the 405 or the 5 can attest to the LA/OC county line as being a relatively meaningless demarcation… it’s all a contiguous blur of concrete and humanity.
Who cares if its in LA or not? You see Angels fans complain about that alot on the internet. The Tampa Bay Rays don’t play in Tampa, I don’t see any Rays fans tell anyone that they play in St Pertersburg, except as an excuse for their poor attendence.
And as mentioned above, the Dallas Cowboys don’t play in Dallas County. They haven’t since they played in the Cotton Bowl. The Redskins don’t play in Washington DC either. But their fans don’t want them to be called the “Arlington Cowboys” or the “Landover Redskins”.
Actually, that is a very big issue in the region. Many St. Pete residents are incensed that the media often refer to the team as the Tampa Rays. Tampa Bay refers to the region-the two cities are on opposite sides of the bay-not to the city of Tampa.
royals fans can’t believe cano made the list
I agree being underrated doesn’t mean people don’t think he’s still very good.
If the MVP vote were today – I think it would be Trout/Hamilton with Cano a distant 3rd.
He’s putting up monster #’s without any sort of flukish .400+ BABIP and his UZR #’s seem to be catching up to people’s preception of his defensive ability (the #’s in the past have been all over the place)
Not sure how this got here… but Royal fans would probably disgaree with my assessment so it kind of fits (?)
Boooooooooooooo!
Cano is certainly underrated by Royals fans. They think he’s terrible!
Trout. He’s the GOAT. No one says it, therefore underrated.
I would say Trout is underrated because people keep bringing up Harper at the same time. Pretending Trout and Harper are similar makes Trout the most underrated and Harper the most overrated.
You’re right, Trout and Harper are not similar at all.
Trout’s age 19 season wasn’t even in the same stratosphere as Harper’s has been
I bet Harper’s age-20 season won’t be nearly as good as Trout’s.
Let’s see whether Trout maintains that .408 BABIP before we make any grand pronouncements about Harper being unable to match it.
It definitely looks like a special season right now, but they play 162 games for a reason.
This “article” is Bleacher Report-esque.
I’m just surprised that the players didn’t pick Derek Jeter or David Eckstein.
No Bruce Chen?
#Countrybreakfast
Most hilarious is that apparently 12 of the 15 most underrated players call the overrated league their home.
Cue: Any and every analyst gawking at obscene run potential of AL Lineup, any and every 2012 All-Star Game Preview.
you haven’t checked the interleague standings the past few years, have you?
Not convinced. Tell any team to pay for nine hitters, they’ll pay for nine hitters and beat the teams that paid for eight more often than not. DH advantage washes out in the WS when NL teams are more likely to have a suitable ninth batter. AL is still overrated.
What about the .12 difference in ERA (and .23 difference in FIP) despite every team in the AL having 9 hitters?
There is a difference of 128 points of wRC+ between the league average DH and the average P, that’s more than .12 runs per 9.
Do the words “small sample size” have any meaning to you or YanksFan?
The AL is hugely overrated and the NL’s pitching is completely superior.
Since 2000:
NL ERA/FIP/xFIP = 4.24/4.28/3.57
AL ERA/FIP/xFIP = 4.43/4.39/3.68
Pitcher wRC+= -11
DH wRC+ = 110
NL pitching is certainly more top heavy, but it is definitely not superior.
And for good measure:
Since the start of interleague play the AL leads the NL with a 2081-1883 interleague record, good for a .525 winning percentage.
AL teams have won 62 out of the 107 World Series played.
Using the ws or inter league is stupid. In a given year it’s nearly impossible to know. Teams play around 5 series, 15 inter league games. They aren’t matched up by record. Atlanta, for example, played 18 inter league games against teams above .500. I bet that skewed it.
It’s not a bad list if you assume that the players were just trolling us with the #1 pick before moving onto their real choices.
As a Rangers fan who frequents a couple of Rangers online communities, I can assure you that we have not let the players off easy for voting Young #1. We are sick of the treatment he gets by the media, Ron Washington (stop batting him 5th, you idiot!), and now the players. Whatever happened to merit?
I’m sorry to double post, but I need to take it further. I cannot express enough how the Media/players/Ron Washington’s view towards Michael Young do not reflect the views of most Rangers fans. We are TIRED of the #leadership propaganda.
You people may not know who Evan Grant of Dallas Morning News is. He is the man who voted Young AL MVP last year. As in first place with his BBWAA vote. He said this past offseason that the Rangers should extend Michael Young instead of Hamilton because players would follow Young’s lead. He also gave a breakdown of 5 reasons Michael Young should still hit 5th recently broken down here. Those reasons, in short are..
1. He has a good track record (no mention of age).
2. He is a leader (of course).
3. Noone in the Rangers lineup can take his place (obvious bullshit).
4. He should be graded on a curve (have to read to believe)
5. The Angels also have a bad player hitting 5th.
Grant is the most notorious of the pro-Young media, and there are others like him. Its sickening how much pro-Young nonsense the public is fed by Dallas Morning News, ESPNDallas, etc. But I would say most of us resist this.
They also try to either DENY (as Matt K pointed out) or JUSTIFY Michael Young having a media temper tantrum(s) when he was asked to change positions. As if it had never happened to a player of his caliber before. He is not mistreated, he is treated VERY fairly by the team, given as much playing time as he wants (not deserves) and the biggest albatross of a contract on the team. And yet some people think that he is above being moved for better players (Beltre, Andrus). But not most people, which is the point.
The Resistance is running full force, though. The PADMY (Past A Diving Michael Young), FACE, and #leadership memes are starting to spread through the Rangers blogosphere. So please, do not think all of us Rangers fans are idiots!
While I completely agree with you, you are one sick puppy.
Glad you liked my assault on Evan Grant. He is entertaining to make fun of from afar but I don’t doubt his articles would be physically painful for a saberinclined Rangers fan.
I have felt Jamie Carroll has been under ratted for years. I think of him as the anti-konerko as he does well everything Konerko does not. He has been on average about the 5th best defensive secondbasemen in the game for his careers duration. He has a career on base % of .353, so he has a great eye at the plate. BA is .274 so he is nothing special at batting average. Because he is devoid of power and does not steal much, he is rarely allowed to start, but both seasons he has had more than 500 plate at bats (thanks to injuries to starters) he has been either a 2 win or a 3 win player. Unfortunately being a 3 win player earned him another bench job as did his 2 win season because his positive value cames from excellent base running (not stealing), well above average but not gold glove defense at second, and a high Obase% with a low Slg%.. He is good at underrated stats!
If you have more than one above average full season and still have to compete for a bench job the following spring, then that defines underrated to me.
LOL Jamey was a 3 WAR player *once*, way back in ought six. And that was artificially propped up by an inflated fielding score. Those fielding components of WAR are at best useless and at worst propagandish. He’s also FAILED to reach even a meager 2 WAR in 4 of the last 6 seasons. He sucks and belongs with the rest of the overrated players in theAL …
To be quite frank, most players are pretty stupid when it comes to analyzing talent. I’ve seen many cases of it and this is icing on the cake.
congrats. you finally found an opportunity to make a juno joke.