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	<title>Comments on: Lincecum Versus Verducci and PAP</title>
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	<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/</link>
	<description>Daily fantasy baseball analysis and strategy</description>
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		<title>By: Alireza</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-2081</link>
		<dc:creator>Alireza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 02:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-2081</guid>
		<description>O&#039;Leary has had mixed reviews about Lincecum&#039;s mechanics because he does make a bit of an inverted L but doesn&#039;t seem to have the timing problems that come along with most inverted Ls and Ws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>O&#8217;Leary has had mixed reviews about Lincecum&#8217;s mechanics because he does make a bit of an inverted L but doesn&#8217;t seem to have the timing problems that come along with most inverted Ls and Ws.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Joura</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-2040</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Joura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-2040</guid>
		<description>kevinclay, the following pitchers were also from that same era you mentioned and had some great seasons but were unable to put in the lengthy careers as their Hall of Fame counterparts:

Steve Barber, Dave Boswell, Jim Bouton, Ron Bryant, Wally Bunker, Steve Busby, Dean Chance, Sammy Ellis, Chuck Estrada, Wayne Garland, Gary Gentry, Don Gullett, Denny McLain, Jim Merritt, Andy Messersmith, Gary Nolan, J.R. Richard, Wayne Simpson and many, many others.

Jim Bouton won 39 games as a 24-25 year old. He won 16 the rest of his career. Don Gullett pitched 218 innings as a 20-year old. He didn’t make it past age 27. Denny McLain hurled 661 innings over two seasons as a 24-25 year old. He was washed up at 28. Ron Bryant pitched 270 innings as a 25-year old. He was out of baseball two years later. All of these pitchers had great success early and then flamed out from overuse.

We remember the survivors but the ones who couldn&#039;t handle the workload are important to consider, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kevinclay, the following pitchers were also from that same era you mentioned and had some great seasons but were unable to put in the lengthy careers as their Hall of Fame counterparts:</p>
<p>Steve Barber, Dave Boswell, Jim Bouton, Ron Bryant, Wally Bunker, Steve Busby, Dean Chance, Sammy Ellis, Chuck Estrada, Wayne Garland, Gary Gentry, Don Gullett, Denny McLain, Jim Merritt, Andy Messersmith, Gary Nolan, J.R. Richard, Wayne Simpson and many, many others.</p>
<p>Jim Bouton won 39 games as a 24-25 year old. He won 16 the rest of his career. Don Gullett pitched 218 innings as a 20-year old. He didn’t make it past age 27. Denny McLain hurled 661 innings over two seasons as a 24-25 year old. He was washed up at 28. Ron Bryant pitched 270 innings as a 25-year old. He was out of baseball two years later. All of these pitchers had great success early and then flamed out from overuse.</p>
<p>We remember the survivors but the ones who couldn&#8217;t handle the workload are important to consider, too.</p>
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		<title>By: kevinclay</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-2039</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinclay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 16:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-2039</guid>
		<description>Can someone please tell me why pitchers were able to throw over 300 innings in the 60&#039;s without there arms falling off.  Jenkins went 9 seasons in a row with 270+ip. Drysdale 4 straight seasons with 300+ and eras of &lt;3.00. Carlton threw 346 inns in &#039;72 with no injuries (though his era jumped by 2 runs). Seaver went 11 of 12 seasons with 270+ well after they lowered the pitching mound.  My theory is it has a lot to do with our diets these days.  Even if you try to eat healthy (meaning large quantities of raw fruits and  vegetables) which most athletes do not, the vegetables don&#039;t have the minerals they used to because of farming methods.  The table salt we used is not easily used by our bodies, we don&#039;t drink adequate amounts of just water, and oil is used only to fry food in.  The connective tissue and muscles must surely suffer as well as the rest of the body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can someone please tell me why pitchers were able to throw over 300 innings in the 60&#8217;s without there arms falling off.  Jenkins went 9 seasons in a row with 270+ip. Drysdale 4 straight seasons with 300+ and eras of &lt;3.00. Carlton threw 346 inns in &#8216;72 with no injuries (though his era jumped by 2 runs). Seaver went 11 of 12 seasons with 270+ well after they lowered the pitching mound.  My theory is it has a lot to do with our diets these days.  Even if you try to eat healthy (meaning large quantities of raw fruits and  vegetables) which most athletes do not, the vegetables don&#8217;t have the minerals they used to because of farming methods.  The table salt we used is not easily used by our bodies, we don&#8217;t drink adequate amounts of just water, and oil is used only to fry food in.  The connective tissue and muscles must surely suffer as well as the rest of the body.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Joura</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-669</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Joura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-669</guid>
		<description>Hi Larry - I&#039;m surprised it took you this long to comment!  Anyway, thanks as always for reading and leaving your thoughts - it&#039;s very much appreciated.  Here is the link to your Lincecum piece at FBG:

http://archive.fantasybaseballgenerals.com/2008/09/tim-lincecum-and-pitch-counts.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Larry &#8211; I&#8217;m surprised it took you this long to comment!  Anyway, thanks as always for reading and leaving your thoughts &#8211; it&#8217;s very much appreciated.  Here is the link to your Lincecum piece at FBG:</p>
<p><a href="http://archive.fantasybaseballgenerals.com/2008/09/tim-lincecum-and-pitch-counts.html" rel="nofollow">http://archive.fantasybaseballgenerals.com/2008/09/tim-lincecum-and-pitch-counts.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-668</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-668</guid>
		<description>You shouldn&#039;t judge a pitcher by W&#039;s and L&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You shouldn&#8217;t judge a pitcher by W&#8217;s and L&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Yocum</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Yocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-667</guid>
		<description>By the way, we should contact Chris O&#039;leary and ask him how much his opinion has changed since last year.  I remember reading his coverage of Lincecum last season and I remember it being much more positive, but I could be wrong. He updated the piece recently when he found some new film footage.

Also, O&#039;leary has often been a critic of the inverted L, but it doesn&#039;t appear as bad as the inverted W or the L and W together in a windup.  I&#039;m not the mechanical guy that O&#039;leary is and I respect his work, but Lincecum&#039;s L is not as pronounced as others and as O&#039;leary says himself, it is not a clear indication that he will have problems. It would appear that the inverted W is much more dangerous for the longterm health of a pitcher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, we should contact Chris O&#8217;leary and ask him how much his opinion has changed since last year.  I remember reading his coverage of Lincecum last season and I remember it being much more positive, but I could be wrong. He updated the piece recently when he found some new film footage.</p>
<p>Also, O&#8217;leary has often been a critic of the inverted L, but it doesn&#8217;t appear as bad as the inverted W or the L and W together in a windup.  I&#8217;m not the mechanical guy that O&#8217;leary is and I respect his work, but Lincecum&#8217;s L is not as pronounced as others and as O&#8217;leary says himself, it is not a clear indication that he will have problems. It would appear that the inverted W is much more dangerous for the longterm health of a pitcher.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Yocum</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Yocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-666</guid>
		<description>Hey Brian, 

I prepared my response in detail to Patrick DiCaprio over at the The Generals site, but it is no more, so I can&#039;t pull it up. :  ( 
So, you know where I stand on the issue.  I think pitchcounts have their place, but they need to be applied to the individual based on performance.  Some guys get put more strain on their arm, elbow, shoulder, etc., or don&#039;t have the stamina to safely throw 120 pitches on a regular basis.  Lincecum has always thrown high pitch counts and as somebody else said, doesn&#039;t ice and has never missed a start due to injury.  EVER.

I too wish that Boochey didn&#039;t ride him like a rented mule, but I also think the kid is special.  He just does things differently.  Last season after a 120+ outing the kid comes to the edge of the dugout and frickin does one arm pullups with his pitching arm.  It was ridiculous.  Most guys bundle up in their little jackets or throw the ice on and look completely gassed and this kid is doing pullups on the dugout.  The coaching staff looked like they wanted to slap him, either out of jeolousy or to tell him not to do that kind of stuff.

This is going to be a hot topic for years to come and isn&#039;t going away anytime soon.  I&#039;m much more concerned with Justin Verlander, who has shown signs of fatigue in the second half each season, has always been on pitch counts, and something was just wrong last year.  He has also been high up the PAP chart each season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brian, </p>
<p>I prepared my response in detail to Patrick DiCaprio over at the The Generals site, but it is no more, so I can&#8217;t pull it up. :  (<br />
So, you know where I stand on the issue.  I think pitchcounts have their place, but they need to be applied to the individual based on performance.  Some guys get put more strain on their arm, elbow, shoulder, etc., or don&#8217;t have the stamina to safely throw 120 pitches on a regular basis.  Lincecum has always thrown high pitch counts and as somebody else said, doesn&#8217;t ice and has never missed a start due to injury.  EVER.</p>
<p>I too wish that Boochey didn&#8217;t ride him like a rented mule, but I also think the kid is special.  He just does things differently.  Last season after a 120+ outing the kid comes to the edge of the dugout and frickin does one arm pullups with his pitching arm.  It was ridiculous.  Most guys bundle up in their little jackets or throw the ice on and look completely gassed and this kid is doing pullups on the dugout.  The coaching staff looked like they wanted to slap him, either out of jeolousy or to tell him not to do that kind of stuff.</p>
<p>This is going to be a hot topic for years to come and isn&#8217;t going away anytime soon.  I&#8217;m much more concerned with Justin Verlander, who has shown signs of fatigue in the second half each season, has always been on pitch counts, and something was just wrong last year.  He has also been high up the PAP chart each season.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan S</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-661</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-661</guid>
		<description>Agreed, his mechanics compensate for the massive amounts of torque on the shoulder and elbow that most pitchers generate from their throwing motion. There was a great article written on this subject during last season, which you can find here: http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/TimLincecum.html

The author obviously feels that, in the long term, the little guy will probabbly run into to arm trouble. But for next season, all bets are on that he remains at the top of his game. He will not go the way of Mark Prior, at least not this season.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, his mechanics compensate for the massive amounts of torque on the shoulder and elbow that most pitchers generate from their throwing motion. There was a great article written on this subject during last season, which you can find here: <a href="http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/TimLincecum.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/TimLincecum.html</a></p>
<p>The author obviously feels that, in the long term, the little guy will probabbly run into to arm trouble. But for next season, all bets are on that he remains at the top of his game. He will not go the way of Mark Prior, at least not this season.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-660</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-660</guid>
		<description>You beat me too it.  The standard laws of physics and PAP don&#039;t seem to apply to this kid.  He doesn&#039;t even ice his arm after starts.  There&#039;s something very, very different about him, and the way he&#039;s trained his muscles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You beat me too it.  The standard laws of physics and PAP don&#8217;t seem to apply to this kid.  He doesn&#8217;t even ice his arm after starts.  There&#8217;s something very, very different about him, and the way he&#8217;s trained his muscles.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Joura</title>
		<link>http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/lincecum-versus-verducci-and-pap/#comment-648</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Joura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=1248#comment-648</guid>
		<description>Hi Andrew - thanks for the correction.  I will fix in the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Andrew &#8211; thanks for the correction.  I will fix in the article.</p>
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