Comments on: Week 12 Trade Possibilities http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/ Daily fantasy baseball analysis and strategy Sun, 12 Feb 2012 23:45:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: R M http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3396 R M Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:56:14 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3396 That's exactly my point. We can only blindly speculate what reasons managers might have had for trading Vazquez, so why would you use that information to base an argument that his value will be reduced because of his slightly low win total? Like I said before, I could find 3 lopsided trades for pretty much any player, and that doesn't mean they're a good buy low candidate for the vast majority of us. I'm not even going to get into the other stuff you said. I am arguing civilly, and I haven't made a single personal comment towards you. That’s exactly my point. We can only blindly speculate what reasons managers might have had for trading Vazquez, so why would you use that information to base an argument that his value will be reduced because of his slightly low win total? Like I said before, I could find 3 lopsided trades for pretty much any player, and that doesn’t mean they’re a good buy low candidate for the vast majority of us.

I’m not even going to get into the other stuff you said. I am arguing civilly, and I haven’t made a single personal comment towards you.

]]> By: Braden http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3385 Braden Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:06:23 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3385 Brian and R.M., You guys both make great points. People are going to trade players on a whim... Unfortunately luck plays into fantasy sports more often than I'd like. And the dumb people get lucky. I looked at Javy's numbers and thought he'd make a great addition to my team. Now, admittedly, I'm a rookie to all this in-depth numbers stuff, but I'm starting to love it. True, Vazquez hasn't been getting very many wins, but that could turn around very quickly. But who cares? As long as he continues the other great stats. Brian, unfortunately I don't see your logic with Alexei. It seems to me that you explain why to trade/acquire the players in your article and then support it with data. Except you did not do this very well with Alexei. The numbers/projections as far as I can tell (with my limited experience) are in his favor. And why would an owner who suffered through his deplorable start now try and ditch him? The damage, that you speak of minimizing, is done. Why not keep him and watch as he tries to fix everything he broke? I think you might be bringing a little too much emotion into this. Did you own him? Did you drop him and now someone else is reaping all the rewards?? With a webname like fanGRAPHS personal intuition, gut feelings, hairs on the back of your neck, little devils or angels sitting on your shoulder should not hold any weight in this forum and should not be discussed. Numbers/stats are everything! Thanks for the insight, though. I love this site. Brian and R.M.,
You guys both make great points. People are going to trade players on a whim… Unfortunately luck plays into fantasy sports more often than I’d like. And the dumb people get lucky. I looked at Javy’s numbers and thought he’d make a great addition to my team. Now, admittedly, I’m a rookie to all this in-depth numbers stuff, but I’m starting to love it. True, Vazquez hasn’t been getting very many wins, but that could turn around very quickly. But who cares? As long as he continues the other great stats.
Brian, unfortunately I don’t see your logic with Alexei. It seems to me that you explain why to trade/acquire the players in your article and then support it with data. Except you did not do this very well with Alexei. The numbers/projections as far as I can tell (with my limited experience) are in his favor. And why would an owner who suffered through his deplorable start now try and ditch him? The damage, that you speak of minimizing, is done. Why not keep him and watch as he tries to fix everything he broke? I think you might be bringing a little too much emotion into this. Did you own him? Did you drop him and now someone else is reaping all the rewards?? With a webname like fanGRAPHS personal intuition, gut feelings, hairs on the back of your neck, little devils or angels sitting on your shoulder should not hold any weight in this forum and should not be discussed. Numbers/stats are everything!
Thanks for the insight, though. I love this site.

]]> By: Brian Joura http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3378 Brian Joura Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:49:13 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3378 R M said: "My point is, you can’t just take a couple bad trades without knowing the quality of the league and say that people are going to be able to buy low on a guy." And one of my points is that you cannot possibly know the "quality" of every league. Look, I get it that you look down on analysts and fantasy players that don't share your POV. But there are all different kinds and levels of fantasy play and I'm deeply sorry that each one of the 10 players I toss out there each week don't measure up to your personal standards. You made a rational objection to Alexei Ramirez on this week's list. That's great - that's what I want. But this holier than thou stuff that you've been doing with Vazquez is (maybe) one step above pointless. Clearly everyone in fantasy baseball gets traded. One reason why an owner might trade Vazquez is that he is not an elite pitcher in the Wins column. Is it the only reason? Of course not. There are probably as many reasons to trade him as there are leagues. But the suggestion that nobody is going to trade him due to wins is demonstrably false. R M said:

“My point is, you can’t just take a couple bad trades without knowing the quality of the league and say that people are going to be able to buy low on a guy.”

And one of my points is that you cannot possibly know the “quality” of every league. Look, I get it that you look down on analysts and fantasy players that don’t share your POV. But there are all different kinds and levels of fantasy play and I’m deeply sorry that each one of the 10 players I toss out there each week don’t measure up to your personal standards.

You made a rational objection to Alexei Ramirez on this week’s list. That’s great – that’s what I want. But this holier than thou stuff that you’ve been doing with Vazquez is (maybe) one step above pointless. Clearly everyone in fantasy baseball gets traded. One reason why an owner might trade Vazquez is that he is not an elite pitcher in the Wins column. Is it the only reason? Of course not. There are probably as many reasons to trade him as there are leagues.

But the suggestion that nobody is going to trade him due to wins is demonstrably false.

]]> By: R M http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3377 R M Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:28:53 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3377 Javier Vazquez is the 90th most traded starting pitcher on CBS since June 12th. 89 other starting pitchers have been traded more. 261 may sound like a big number without any context, but not so much when Santana has been traded 479 times in that same span. Plus.... Bronson Arroyo - The guy is either a complete idiot or trying to lose. AJ Burnett - Probably a yankees fan who has no idea what he's doing. Burnett has been worse or the same in every category thus far. Jackson - His ERA is 2.40, and he's about 6 years younger. I don't think the 1 win difference is why it happened. Bad trades happen no matter what the value of a player...if you have a rookie or an idiot in your league, you can get a player for cheap no matter what his current value. The point is, among fantasy owners who know anything about baseball, Javer Vazquez isn't going to have diminished value because he only has 5 wins. I can come up with just as uneven trades for players without diminished value....in my 12 team league on ESPN someone traded Ryan Braun and Joe Nathan for Mariano Rivera and Carlos Delgado. Everyone got pissed, turned out he had never played fantasy baseball before. My point is, you can't just take a couple bad trades without knowing the quality of the league and say that people are going to be able to buy low on a guy. Javier Vazquez is the 90th most traded starting pitcher on CBS since June 12th. 89 other starting pitchers have been traded more. 261 may sound like a big number without any context, but not so much when Santana has been traded 479 times in that same span.

Plus….
Bronson Arroyo – The guy is either a complete idiot or trying to lose.
AJ Burnett – Probably a yankees fan who has no idea what he’s doing. Burnett has been worse or the same in every category thus far.
Jackson – His ERA is 2.40, and he’s about 6 years younger. I don’t think the 1 win difference is why it happened.

Bad trades happen no matter what the value of a player…if you have a rookie or an idiot in your league, you can get a player for cheap no matter what his current value. The point is, among fantasy owners who know anything about baseball, Javer Vazquez isn’t going to have diminished value because he only has 5 wins.

I can come up with just as uneven trades for players without diminished value….in my 12 team league on ESPN someone traded Ryan Braun and Joe Nathan for Mariano Rivera and Carlos Delgado. Everyone got pissed, turned out he had never played fantasy baseball before. My point is, you can’t just take a couple bad trades without knowing the quality of the league and say that people are going to be able to buy low on a guy.

]]> By: Brian Joura http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3376 Brian Joura Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:38:20 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3376 CBS Sports tracks all trades from their members and you can access them. The great Javy Vazquez has been traded around 100 times in the past five days alone in their leagues and 261 times since June 12th. The majority of these have been part of multi-player deals where you can twist around what the owner motivation is. But here are four deals from the past five days where Vazquez was traded straight up for another SP Bronson Arroyo AJ Burnett - two times Edwin Jackson CBS Sports is just one fantasy provider and probably not the biggest, either. I believe you when you say that you've never seen it happen in any league that you play in. But that is simply not something you can extrapolate to every other fantasy player on the planet. CBS Sports tracks all trades from their members and you can access them. The great Javy Vazquez has been traded around 100 times in the past five days alone in their leagues and 261 times since June 12th. The majority of these have been part of multi-player deals where you can twist around what the owner motivation is. But here are four deals from the past five days where Vazquez was traded straight up for another SP

Bronson Arroyo
AJ Burnett – two times
Edwin Jackson

CBS Sports is just one fantasy provider and probably not the biggest, either. I believe you when you say that you’ve never seen it happen in any league that you play in. But that is simply not something you can extrapolate to every other fantasy player on the planet.

]]> By: Brian Joura http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3375 Brian Joura Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:22:01 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3375 It's nice to know that you are aware of the trading patterns of the three million plus people who play fantasy baseball. It’s nice to know that you are aware of the trading patterns of the three million plus people who play fantasy baseball.

]]> By: HomeBrew http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3374 HomeBrew Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:00:05 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3374 I was just recently a buyer on the Haren market. However, I did it knowing what I was getting into. Haren has inflated ratios in August/September the past few years, but even so, he's very good and I need him to bring my ratios down. The trade went like this: I received Haren, Aramis Ramirez, and Jay Bruce and I gave up Ichiro, Gallardo, and Kendrick. I'm tops in AVG, and I LOVE Gallardo, but his WHIP isn't the prettiest on the market. If Aramis can make it back healthy and produce, then I think this will have been a successful venture for me. I was just recently a buyer on the Haren market. However, I did it knowing what I was getting into. Haren has inflated ratios in August/September the past few years, but even so, he’s very good and I need him to bring my ratios down. The trade went like this: I received Haren, Aramis Ramirez, and Jay Bruce and I gave up Ichiro, Gallardo, and Kendrick. I’m tops in AVG, and I LOVE Gallardo, but his WHIP isn’t the prettiest on the market. If Aramis can make it back healthy and produce, then I think this will have been a successful venture for me.

]]> By: AY http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3372 AY Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:02:21 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3372 I have to say I've never played in a fantasy league where people sell their stud pitchers because they aren't getting enough wins. That is completely unheard of I have to say I’ve never played in a fantasy league where people sell their stud pitchers because they aren’t getting enough wins. That is completely unheard of

]]> By: R M http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3371 R M Thu, 25 Jun 2009 03:27:40 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3371 Brian....nobody's going to trade Javier Vazquez cheap because he has a few fewer wins than he should, whether or not they need wins. Brian….nobody’s going to trade Javier Vazquez cheap because he has a few fewer wins than he should, whether or not they need wins.

]]> By: Brian Joura http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/index.php/week-12-trade-possibilities/#comment-3366 Brian Joura Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:39:57 +0000 http://www.fangraphs.com/fantasy/?p=3856#comment-3366 You've never played in a league where someone needed Wins and was willing to trade a guy underperforming in the category? You’ve never played in a league where someone needed Wins and was willing to trade a guy underperforming in the category?

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